Petaluma Presentation on Roundups- Thursday

How Can We End The Inhumane Roundups of America’s Wild Horses?

A Presentation by Elyse Gardner, Humane Observer at the Nevada Roundups.

for more information on Elyse’s work go to http://humaneobserver.blogspot.com/

Please join us for an informative evening

Thursday February 4th, 2010
7-9 PM
in the Excalibur Room at
Roundtable Pizza
1520 E Washington Street, Petaluma CA 94954
(707) 762-1861
For more information or carpooling call 707-695-6388

Please send friends in the area and call on media to attend as well!

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182 Responses to “Petaluma Presentation on Roundups- Thursday”

  1. Margaret Says:

    Yikes, I’m heading for mapquest! I have to have my windshield replaced tomorrow–so I will try to be ontime.

    See everyone tomorrow night. Drive safe it’ll be raining.

  2. Michael J Ahles Says:

    If you want to help preserve freedom, be it the mustangs, our land, or as well ourselves, choose wisely what you eat, Boycott Beef.
    BLM is beef.
    A beef boycott will set the west free again.
    Thanks,

    =
    MJA

    • Roxy Says:

      Mchael, according to USDA most beef grazed in USA is EXPORTED. Just was told on a YouTube, not verifed, that the beef IMPORTED, most of what we eat, is from South America. So we would just be boycotting people and thier incomes somewhere else.

      Boycott beef if you must, but also the other products from the corporations that graze cattle on public lands and let them know why.

      Boycott stocks and bonds from theses corporations, thier holding companies and their subsidiaries and let them know why.

  3. sandra longley Says:

    thank you so very much for being our eyes and ears there…altho it sickens me to see what is happening..I know we all must bear witness to these events..I am so disturbed that I not only voted for…but donated money and worked on the national campaign to get these people into office…I wonder if I can ever forgive myself. You are a better person than I…if I was there-I would have been hauled off to jail or shot..It is so surreal it feels like this is taking place in china or Iran-not america

  4. Phyllis Says:

    I wish I could go…have to work all day. Like from 9:00 to 9:00. I hope you will have info on the web later. Else and Craig thank you for all you do. You’re pieces on the roundup have been heart felt. Thanks for being there for the wild ones. I’m sure they feel your love and comfort for them.

  5. Sue Says:

    I agree with MJA, eating beef is the fuel behind all this cruelty. It is so hard to watch this stuff going on and we are just being ignored in our protests! Money once again is the driving force, we cannot compete with the big meat industry. So, the only thing we have is to stop supporting them. Don’t eat meat!

  6. Phyllis Says:

    I just watched the these beautiful horses healthy and free being forced to run for their lives…tired, not knowing this would be their last day of freedom. The boundaries have been extended because they do not want people to see what the do and how mean they are to these innocent horses. It is truly amazing with all the protests, letters ,and phone calls…. know one who can stop this is listening. We need a rally as large as the tea parties. Maybe they would like to join us..I agree too with MJA let’s all boycott meat. Wild Horse Annie was able to stop this and we have great people woring for the wild ones…We must FIGHT ON until we spare the horses the life they them to live. (sorry to use the USC slogan I just heard it on TV seem like a good one for this cause.)

  7. jan Says:

    i dont eat beef because of the high fat but after all the recalls of containmated beef in the last few months – would not eat it anyway –

  8. jan Says:

    i think obama went to nevada today and made some stupid comment about las vegas or nevada so now they are mad at him

  9. jan Says:

    thats why i keep saying and i know it would take a lot of organization and money – to have a horse back ride of mustangs in washington dc – a real live protest with real live horses – is anything being demonstrated at the super bowl – my gosh u got world wide coverage -everyone would see – how about budweiser ad with horses – cant someone say something about the horses – isnt one of the teams playing the colts – dont know much about football – just know that madeline had mustangs at some of her football games – the more exposure – the more people learn – time to fight the enemy with fire – the horses are paying in their blood for freedom –

  10. mustangdreams... Cat Kindsfather Says:

    It sounds like a great meeting. I wish I could be there. We are getting ready for the “Truth Rally” on February 20th here in Carson City. I have a lot of signs to paint and caring for my mom too. Petaluma is a bit far this time.

    I hope its a great get together and power up for the fight to end the atrocities.
    Would love to meet you Elyse, sometime! Thanks for all you are doing!
    Will look forward to shared thoughts after this meeting. Take Care!

  11. LOUIE COCROFT Says:

    Did anyone else listen to the Howling Ridge show? Ginger was on and Elyse and Craig called in from out in Nevada. They are staying right with the horses as much as they can. What I’m trying to remember is–did I hear correctly that the private ranch that was used for the round-up is the Broken Arrow Ranch and that holding pens had been built for the ranch? Did our government provide that ranch with those holding pens with our money? How much money?

  12. sandra longley Says:

    Having a beef bocott was one of my first thoughts as well, but I am becoming increasingley convinced…this-is not about the ranchers or the habitat…but about the” fasttrack” for energy leases that Salazar bragged about on the DOI webpage…go there and look under energy,-they have set aside 300 million acres for energy leases, and another million for rightaways for the roads into those areas and the transmission lines to take that energy out of the desert…leases have already been cut-more applications coming in that they are “fasttracking” as he puts it-they want to start breaking ground by dec of 2010..The picture is starting to make sense now…this massive roundup in the dead of winter…any horseman or rancher would know this not common sense…there is a compelling reason for this…and I believe i am on to something here, it explains what was not making sense to me…He is pulling the bandaid off quick-figures we will scream and holler,but the horses will be loaded up and gone back east, and we will quit hollering and making noise…he can break ground in dec. with most of the horses gone…try to use the freedom of information act to find about these leases….It is to their advantage that it becomes a “range war” issue…the cattlemen need to know they are next, and the Sierra club needs to know that instead of birds and wildlife…they can hike through walls of solar panels..I have been a strong supporter of green energy…but wiping out the wild horses-is a backward way of getting there-both could and should co-exist,,,,Mr. T Boone pickens knows a thing or 2 about windfarms and alternative energy..Please put ypur energy into following this trail

    • Karen L. Says:

      Energy leases probably are more expedient to the DOI at this point in time; but whether it’s ranchers, energy, mining, or other interests, the problem begins with the DOI/BLM’s thinking in regard to the “multiple use concept” for public lands. They manage land under The Federal Land Policy Management Act of 1976, which requires multiple use and sustained yield. Historically the BLM has interpreted this to mean that they can use the land for anything they deem necessary—that the land policy act overrides the 1971 Wild Horse and Burro Act. Animal rights attorneys think otherwise. They say that the federal statutes are clear that the WH&B Act should take precedence in the protection of the horses. Laura Allen of the Animal Law Coalition has written eloquently and in detail on these subjects. Mr. Spriggs, attorney in the IDA lawsuit, is attempting to further that idea and build on the case law set forth in the Colorado Wild Horse and Burro Coalition, Inc. v. Salazar, 2009, where Judge Rosemary Collyer found that the BLM’s reasoning subverted the purpose of the 1971 statute. Ms. Allen explains the “multiple use” interpretations in several articles. Here is a link.
      http://www.animallawcoalition.com/horse-slaughter/article/1081

      • Lisa LeBlanc Says:

        A couple of days ago I found a Range Vegetation Recovery Study (and of course, haven’t been able to find the link since). All up and down the highways in Nevada – US50 and 80- are these small areas enclosed by fences; these are the ‘study areas’. The study found that, even after sixty-two years of absence of any grazers, the areas had ‘minimal distinction in vegetative recovery.’ Which means, to me at least, that it will take more than zeroing out the Wild Ones and cancelling cattle allotments to get the range back to the same condition it was 100 years ago. If ever.
        It also means that the Wild Ones and their wildlife neighbors are eating SOMETHING that’s keeping them afloat.
        So, I have to agree – it’s got little to do with what the range will support in terms of the Wild Ones – and more to do with the best use of open space that can’t be utilized for human habitation.

      • Marilyn Wargo Says:

        Lisa, This is what Western Watersheds said. The range would not come back all over even with 200 years of no cattle. The attempt to pipe water East in Nevada where they are taking out the sage with chains has been losing support and the water may never be sent. The sage gone will cause severe wind erosion. Who is stupid enough to do these things??? Someone with money and connections, Nothing Else. No science and no common sense.
        We are fighting for our wild ones and the public lands that are about to be raped across the West. mar

      • Lisa LeBlanc Says:

        I’ll tell you something else, Mar; that area they’re scouting out for their mythical Ruby Pipeline? First and foremost, that land has been labeled ‘remote’ and ‘pristine’ covered with what they term ‘virgin sagebrush’. After they’re finished, the land will never be the same. And according to a USGS map of that area of Nevada, it is riddled with seismic fractures. The earthquake in Wells a few years ago? No one saw it coming. Likewise the ‘swarm’ around Reno last year. And they’re becoming more intense.
        There has been unprecedented seismic activity in that area in the last 15 years alone.
        So what kind of ‘environmental impact’ do you suppose a natural gas leak or God forbid, a wildfire, would wreak?
        But don’t pay ME no mind; I’m jus’ a dum li’l horsie hugger.

      • Marilyn Wargo Says:

        Whoa, this is a very bad thing… what are these people thinking?????

        The money would be better off on solar and small wind projects all over the country. It would create jobs and make people energy independent. I am so shocked by the continual ignorance of all involved who have the power to do better. Fools. mar

      • Lisa LeBlanc Says:

        Or start including solar and small wind projects into new construction, if it’s seen to cause environmental issues. Or retrofitting old homes. Give The Public monetary incentive to switch. Not a tax break – a real honest to God check. It’d be cheaper than massive acreage covered with solar panels.
        Oh, but Wait… power companies, gas companies, why we can’t all be selfish and put them out of business, can we.

      • Marilyn Wargo Says:

        Lisa and all, i really hope you read this. Monika sent me this and I have wondered where to throw it out. This is a BIGGY:

        Friends,this is the continuing saga of the Ruby Pipeline.The deeper we dig(the closer to home we get).As you’ll read in this first link-Global Infrastructure Partners(GIP)as of July 2009 owns 50% of the Ruby Pipeline along with the other 50% remaining to El Paso Corp.GIP is partially owned by General Electric.
        Now of course everyone is familiar with General Electric but this report will reveal many things that YOU MAY NOT KNOW.It’s NOT about how many light bulbs they sell-that’s for sure!!!There is so much corruptness associated with this company that I will probably need to do several reports to paint the full picture of just what they are all about.
        Yes,they are the largest company in the world and yes,they are very diverse.They are involved (in some way or another) with everything you can imagine.
        Their power reaches all the way to the very top of Washington DC.They gave George Bush $1.1 million in Presidential contributions in 2000.Presidents Clinton and O’bama have benefitted,too.They are one of the very top contributors with lobbying Congress on a yrly basis.And their individual employees make up a big group of political campaign contributors in their own right.They have investments in renewable energy,as well as gas/mining/drilling/nuclear/utilities.They have designed 91 nuclear plants in 11 countries.They have been involved w/ animal testing.They are war profiteers.They have committed acts of negligience and lapse of ethics that have resulted in human rights violations.They control much of the American media news/entertainment.The millions of dollars the government gives them in tax breaks are legendary.They have violated enviromental laws.They have been involved in so many cases of fraud that in the 1990’s -the Pentagon’s Defense Contract Mgmt Agency created a special investigations office just for their company!OSHA cited them for 858 workplace violations in 1990-2001.They are also one of the largest financial companies in the world.GE has operations in more than 100 countries.THEY OWN EVERYTHING.They buy whatever they want whenever they want it.No one stands in their way.
        No wonder we can’t get Congress to listen to us!
        And this is who is funding 1/2 of the Ruby Pipeline along with many other energy projects.You notice they don’t “advertise” that they are part of this most controversial project.
        I wonder how founding Father,Thomas Edison would react to some of their less than scrupulous business practices.
        This was from Charise Demao, Thanks, mar

      • Barbara Steele Says:

        http://churchillcountynwop.com/
        Yucca Mountain is in the area also.

      • Barbara Steele Says:

        Looks like Yucca Mt. nuclear waste dump is a “no go”!
        http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2010/jan/31/obama-moves-pull-yucca-mountain-license-applicatio/

  13. sandra longley Says:

    I would really like some pictures to go out of the armed gaurds, standing between 10 citizens who are documenting this, and the horses and BLM..There have been no accounts of unruly or threatening citizens..These pictures and videos have been worth a thousand words-it would not suprise me if you find yourself further over the hill..It was the pictures of atrocities in vietnam that finally ended that war…You are our heros! I have been spreading the story of the 30 year old mare-who survived 30 winters and flourished on the land only to perish in this roundup….she obviously thrived on this range and had superior genetics.We must send a message to “Col. Custer” Salazar…that this will be his last roundup…

    • Margaret Says:

      LOL!
      That made me laugh. Col Custer Salazar. What a great name! ROFLMAO!

    • Marilyn Wargo Says:

      Sandra, I sure hope so…mar

    • Lisa LeBlanc Says:

      Sandra – not to belabor the point on the old mare, but to further fire you up:
      I read an archived BLM report on a gather north of Winnemucca circa late 80’s or early 90’s. I guess this was back in the days when they gave a crap. The agreed-upon stipulation was the return to the range of older mares and stallions, not because they were less likely to be adopted but because of their contributions to the herd ‘culture’. My logic: if you can live over 20 years, breeding, fighting, surviving and thriving in an environment as harsh as the Northern Nevada desert, you must know what you’re doing. And if you have a foal at your side? Then your herd stallion must think you’re still hot stuff.
      When domestic horses are pastured together, who runs the show? The oldest mare.
      Which only strengthens my belief that these fools, wranglers, vets, BLM ‘experts’, have absolutely no idea what the hell they’re doing.

  14. sandra longley Says:

    I also happen to know from working on the construction of wind farms here in oregon…the number one concern and holdup of construction-are environmentalists, ecologists and protesters..there was constant security around the perimeters, we had to have security clearance, and the areas were patroled constantly…The government would have to gaureentee those corporations would not be beseiged by protesters-before they would agree to sign the leases, it costs a million dollars for everyone of those windmills…and it is a huge investment for those corporations…there is a paper trail somewhere where the DOI has assured them they will take care of the problem.

  15. Nora Morbeck Says:

    Beef is only part of the problem, and I certainly wouldn’t want responsible ranchers, who own and graze cows on their own land, to suffer because other ranchers are able to lease and misuse public lands. I think if people had a better idea of where their meat comes from, they could make better choices about which meat to buy and what ranchers they can support.

    Having said that, I’m cutting back on meat anyway. 🙂

    On the Humane Observer’s blog, I was shocked by the extreme distance between observers and the horses. What are the Cattoors so afraid of? If observers stand 30 – 40 feet away, they’re not going to be in anyone’s way. To the best of my knowledge — and with DEEPEST GRATITUDE for the restraint of advocates — there haven’t been any incidents that require law enforcement to haul away protestors or observers. I think everyone on this side of the fence has behaved with the utmost integrity — even if we are fairly vocal about our opinions.

    Humane Observers need to be able to get closer, even if the BLM assigns security people to watch over them.

    As for tonight’s presentation, I’ve already sent the information along to one group I know in the Petaluma area. Good luck and I hope you have a wonderful turn out!!

    • Roxy Says:

      Nora,

      I’m repeating a commetn I replied to smeone else – according to USDA most beef raised in USA is EXPORTED. That would be other than the huge fast food feed lots.

      Most of what we get at the supermakertkets, and probbaly sit down restuarants is IMPORTED.

      In a discussion I had with a YouTuber, they aid, I con’t konwhow to verify this, most of our beef is imported from South America. So boycotting beef would only hurt the incomes of people living in another country.

      If you want to hurt the corporations who graze cattle on our public lands, boycott thier other prodicts, boycott their stock from your portfolios, and tell them why.

      I had said we are subsidizing the 27 ranchers who graze cattel on our public lands $4,500,000 or more a year every year indirect payments. Just found out it is 27,000 ranchers so thats only 4,500 a year. Some economists indicate that the actual cost of our current “socialized” welfare program to ranchers in direct and indirect cost is $500 Million a year – CATO Policy Analysis No. 234, July 13, 1995.

  16. jan Says:

    so crazy – i get email frm sierra club and they support green but if govt takes away our public lands and wetlands for engery then even they will have to scream – america without any wildlife – how sterile the lands would be but it could happen – they are builing those windmills in deserts by palm springs and some people dont like them but its a cheap source for engery as the wind blows thru the desert all the time

  17. jan Says:

    just went and googled engery sources – lots of them even one by robert redford – all are for so-called clean engery – wind, solar, etc. – but i bet they dont know at what price it will be provided – talks of using our public lands for these engery sources – therefore anything LIVING ON THE PUBLIC LANDS will be eliminated –

    i believe in the future our war so to speak with the muslim natures will intenisify and we will not be able to get oil frm them so we will have to turn to our own resources for engery – simple as that – what is in the ground and wind and solar wherever they can find it – the people of this country will demand it and everything will be sacrificed to provide it

  18. jan Says:

    cant spell – shd be muslin nations –

  19. jan Says:

    THE REASON HUMANE OBSERVERS CANT GET CLOSER IS THAT THESE PEOPLE DONT WANT ANYONE TO SEE WHAT THEY ARE DOING – and for meat – chickens and pigs and even cattle are abused to provide meat and eggs – and the other nite abc did a video of the dairy industry how cows are abused – that is what has become of this nation – no longer individual farmers and ranchers providing products but huge corporations who are only after the dollar profit and care for the animals comes last – they showed a huge dairy farm business in midwest – cows live year around in a huge barn – floor is dirty – the cows are on cement all the time – cripples them – cows are kept pregnant to produce milkd – abc asked farm manager about abuse – he didnt think there was any – you might still find film on abc – look under nightline – that was where it was shown last week

  20. Lisa LeBlanc Says:

    Hi, Folks,
    Coupla stuff for all you investigative types (gao.gov):
    2 investigations by the GAO on the BLM, recent (within the last two years)
    Land Sales and Acquisitions &
    Environmental Impact of Mining Operations.
    Both investigations smack the BLM around for the Bureau’s inability to do the job in a timely and intelligent fashion. You might download and print the reports. Again, they are dry as hell, but with a highlighter and a quick visual scan, we may find enough stuff to alert the Public.
    One other thing – in the Boycott of Beef: Rather than spend the money on grocery or warehouse store meats, seek out ’boutique’ butcher shops. These tiny mom&pop stores either own their own stock or can trace it back to smaller ranchers, fellas who graze cattle on their own land and raise them ‘free range’. This stock is less likely to have been pumped with drugs and antibiotics, been grass-fed and probably never been anywhere near a BLM allotment.
    And if by bringing them our business, we garner a little support from an independent cattle rancher, that would be an added bonus.

    • Roxy Says:

      Lisa, you indicated an article about the “test” areas earlier on and not being able to find the source. There is just so much information!

      Like you I remember a Salazar interview in an on-line news article, but can’t direct anyone to it – don’t know where it was he was “selling” his “zoo” idea. But I distinctly remember him saying that the horses sent to the east and midwest would IMPROVE the soils.

      Bet he twitched when he realized what he had implied!

      And Craig Downer has indicated this also, and the wild fire management benefits. I know that BLM tried goats to eat down fuel loads, dead brush and all, but they were too distructive, not as bad as cattle. Our local fire departemnts also tried goats, but also found them too destrictive. Horses on the other hand graze around, don’t devastate, just nibble. And in the winter they eat the old dead stuff that would otherwise be fire fuel.

      Yes, nature has a plan.

      • Marilyn Wargo Says:

        So true, Rox…

      • Lisa LeBlanc Says:

        That was yet ANOTHER issue I came across – the correlation of wildfire fuels and the removal of the wild Ones.
        There’s this weed called cheatgrass; it’s a winter annual, and right now, it’s just now starting to sprout. It’s not the most nutritious and it’s invasive, but while it’s green, all the Range Rovers (chuckle) can eat it.
        In about 10 weeks, it’ll start sucking all the moisture and nutrients from the soil, effectively starving it’s competition. Then it grows tall, dries out (it’s seed heads are sharp and too painful to eat) and becomes acres and acres of wildfire fuel. So these round-ups are effectively – aside from annoying the Hell out of us – shooting the Range in the proverbial foot.

      • Marilyn Wargo Says:

        (Applause)
        mar

    • Roxy Says:

      Lisa, reply to your comments at 12:52 – Wild fires are natural and desired. However, when there is too much fuel at the ground level the fire burns at a higher BTU, which reaches the limbs higher up – that is NOT desired. I wish there was some study on the areas, perhaps there is, where wild horses have been removed and the intensity and damage from the fires before horses removed and after. And fighting these fires is becoming more and more costly (see BLM website Fire section), just another cost we don’t need and possibly avoidable if we were not supporting Cattoor and welfare ranchers. I fear the energy independence is unavoidable, unless WE stop using so much energy – would not matter who is in office.

      • Lisa LeBlanc Says:

        That’s another big drawback to cheatgrass – it can be burned, seeds, roots, everything – and the seeds remain viable. After a wildfire, it’s usually the first one back. One study (and I’m really getting sick of me sayin’ that so when you guys have had enough, STOP ME) found cheatgrass seeds can be burned or scalded up to 20 times and still sprout. There’s a cheatgrass stand in the Great Basin in Nevada, where the Wild Ones are regularly mined, that can be seen BY SATELLITE.
        Cheatgrass ain’t natural and it’s dangerous and again, with the shooting in the foot by taking away one of it’s few natural predators – what are these idiots thinking, Lord…

  21. LOUIE COCROFT Says:

    LISA, THAT ALL IS RIGHT ON TRACK. WE NEED TO PUT OUR DOLLARS INTO OUR OWN COMMUNITIES AND SMALL, INDEPENDENT BUSINESSES. A NATION OF SMALL, HEALTHY COMMUNITIES IS WHAT MAKES FOR A STRONG AND VIBRANT COUNTRY. I DO TRY TO DO ALL THAT YOU MENTION. I HEARD THAT 5% OF THE CONSUMERS CAN TIP THE MARKET.

    • Lisa LeBlanc Says:

      Louie – we stopped buying grocery store produce in favor of the local farmer’s markets – saved scads of cash and I know I’m not eating stuff that been genetically manipulated.
      I grew up in a small town, where we knew the butcher by name. All the stock – cattle, chicken, pork – were locally grown and ‘free-range’ and had a quality of life before they became food.
      And none of the local stockmen were supplemented by any government agency.

    • Marilyn Wargo Says:

      Louie, It is called Sustainability and it a big movement all over the world. mar

  22. LOUIE COCROFT Says:

    LISA–FEEL LIKE WRITING SOME MORE? THE LAHOTAN VALLEY PRESS (MENTIONED A FEW LINKS BACK) HAS A PERSON COMMENTING THAT DEMANDS PROOF THAT HE OR SHE IS SUBSIDIZING CORPORATIONS SUCH AS ANHEUSER-BUSCH AND METROPOLITAN LIFE. GRAZING PERMITS AND GAO REPORT ARE ENOUGH PROOF, ACCORDING TO THIS COMMENTER. THIS ONE NEEDS A LOT MORE INFORMATION.

    • Roxy Says:

      Louie, where do we find the permits? I would like to see a whole published list of public land welfare ranch corporations somewhere – maybe there is one?

      • Karen L. Says:

        Roxy, Can’t recall a link or the source of the information, but somewhere I read that to access the list of permit holders requires filing a request under the Freedom of Information Act.

    • Roxy Says:

      So, if the only way to get al list is through FOIA, and baring a FOIA, I suppose one could ask a stock broker to “prove ” they don’t graze on public lands – put the ball back in their court? Or write to them directly.

      Hum? Maybe over my head. There are also the holding companies and subsdiaries, but maybe leave that part alone. I don’t have a broker as I am on State retirement – but I am contacting them to seek certain information and what control there is – none I think.

      I may try writing one and see if and what response I get – I’ll post it here if I do.

      Rodeo supporters are easy to spot – they put those banners up around the rodeo ring. Too bad BLM doesn’t get wind breaks donated by the public grazer Corporations! You can find a whole list of rodeo supporters on SHARK YouTubes. SHARK maybe interested in doing a FOIA, though they are mostly undercover and seem to have a reputation, maybe from those they have exposed? Don’t know. I’ll ask them too.

  23. LOUIE COCROFT Says:

    I FORGOT TO PUT THE “NOT” IN. MEANT TO TYPE NOT ENOUGH PROOF.

  24. LOUIE COCROFT Says:

    Lahontan Valley News: Controversy Swirls Around Calico Mountains
    THIS IS THE ONE–I DON’T THINK I SPELLED IT RIGHT THE FIRST TIME.

    • Lisa LeBlanc Says:

      Louie – if you see a comment posted by ‘kellisgirl’ that’s me.
      I holler a lot in the Reno Gazette, too.

  25. Roxy Says:

    If you haven’t already, see Laura, IDA’s open letter to President Obama at R.T.s site. WOW, powerful!

    Gave me an idea – what if we all posted open letters to Obama in our printed area newspapers, or maybe better in the local State Caiptal newspapers for the rest of Februray? Or pick one weekend – masses and masses of letters in the newspapers? Personals? Or what section(s)?

    Stay respectful, unemotional, factual. As long or short as can be afforded.

    We can’t seem to get past the White House mail room guys or even to Staffers – lets go public!

    Some cost – and some flak no doubt, but worth it?

  26. Michael J Ahles Says:

    Boycotting beef is free as the mustangs soon will be,
    Try it, you’ll see,
    Be free,

    =
    MJA

  27. Margaret Says:

    I just have a question and don’t mean to start any kind of flaming war. I understand about welfare ranchers and how all of this directly affects our wild horses.

    What about buying Kosher meat? I’m not Jewish but I think animals have to be butchered in some distinct way. Is there anyone that can help me understand this? Does it, would it make a difference for us meat eaters if we went Kosher?

    In the meantime I’ve started eating Boca burgers. Hey they aren’t bad. I confess to still having cheese on mine. Not sure that I’ll ever be able to break away from cheese. But I cook mine in canola oil, sprinkle a vegetable seasoning salt on it, put a slice of Danish Havertie cheese and then wrap it in lettuce. Hey for this non eating vetetable eater–its GOOD!

    So everyone that can PLEASE PLEASE COME TONIGHT. You won’t be disappointed in meeting Elyse. She has so much info. I met her two weeks ago in Sacramento. She works so hard for us day in and day out. This is one is gonna be tough but its good to hear from those on the ground what is going on.

    • Nora Morbeck Says:

      Locally grown meat and produce is always a good option. Can’t say that I’m consistent with eating local produce, but we do go to a local butcher — though I’m really cutting back on meat personally, for many reasons. I think to eat meat or not is a personal choice, and I respect people’s choices. But I’ll add that I’m also very glad to see folks actually questioning where their food comes from. More awareness — more information about who and what to support. We just brought home three baby chickens as pets and laying hens. I’m looking forward to eggs this summer, and I have to say these babies are really adorable!

      Again, good luck tonight!

    • Roxy Says:

      Margart, acording to USDA most of the beef from USA is EXPORTED. So other than fast food big beef lots, most of the beef in USA is IMPORTED. I was told, don’t know how to verify, that beef imported is from South America. So you would only be boycotting those persons incomes in another country.

      Better to boycott those corporations other products and stocks and let them know why. Wish there was a list some where that is verified.

      All – This issue is leaving me so jaded towards human nature. How do I know one way or another what I’m getting from a farmers market?

      • Lisa LeBlanc Says:

        If you’re talking produce, most local growers have either daily or week-end sales, depending on the season. And most are happy to answer questions. Mine uses minimal herbicides – mostly other bugs control their pest issues – and their seeds are ‘heirloom’ rather than acquired from commercial seed companies, who routinely add genetic enhancements. They also use compost to feed their land as opposed to nitrogen-based fertilizers. My only caveat – because locally grown produce is not irradiated it spoils quicker, so only buy what you can consume in the short term.
        And a small-store butcher would probably also answer questions – in the best interests of his business. They depend on customer loyalty.

  28. Karen L. Says:

    Laura Allen’s open letter is also available at the Animal Law Coalition site.

  29. Jennifer Gage Says:

    I just read the gather updates. 3 more horses dead. I’m sick. One mare broke her neck! Another mare broke her leg. How does this happen in pens? I think this is happening on the trucks bringing them in. The stallion that they killed had severe injuries-from what? When? This has to be stopped. There has to be a way to get this Lisa person to take photos. They are so guilty looking to me especially because they won’t document the deaths by photos. Very suspicious-VERY. My poor heart is just weeping for these horses not to mention the families that just lost them.

  30. Ray Says:

    A few points.

    I grew up on a ranch and have spent years on a horse or outside where these horses live. I am 57 years old.

    No one including most ranchers wish to see all the existing horses removed, the gather is aimed at maintaining a sustainable number.

    Not mentioned above, antalope, elk, wild sheep, rabbits, even mice all share the same feed as horses and when horses number increase to the extent they have at Calico these other animals suffer.

    Only three herds in the US are remotely related to the original Iberian horse, and they do not look like the original. Up until 1937 the military provided quality studs to anyone out west who would breed/raise/break then sell back as remounts. When that program ended the horses were not worth feeding and were turned loose, creating the bulk of the “wild mustangs” you see today.

    I frequent an area 70 miles south east of here where a ranch had removed all cattle a decade ago due to the number of horses and the resulting poor range condition.
    That horse herd has now pounded two entire valleys into a dustbowl, its mid winter and they are gaunt. One bad season and they will be dying.

    How did domestic horses gone wild become immune to management? What elevates a horse above that of a deer or elk? Why a horse and not a wild pig? Both have a long history with humans both are part of our heritage and both escaped into an environment, both do damage to crops and native vegitation…Feral pigs are managed.

    • Roxy Says:

      So the BLM employee that gave sworn testimony was lieing that there were not too many horses in Calico, that the forage was in fact more than adequate and could support even more horses?

      Don’t you have a cell phone that can take picutres – where are your pictures of all the starving horses on the land? And surely you reported that immedialty to the authorities? There is never any real evidence – its like we are guilty and have to prove a negative.

      Also, where do you see on any advocate website a request or proposal for NO managment?

      Many of us believe that natural predation should be the first and preferable step in population control (stop killling the mountain lions). That PZP given by dart is much preferable to roundups. That if and when roudups are realy needed that they be performed in a humane manner at the best time of the year. That a few horses starved to death on the range as nature intends, is preferable to death as a result of the roundups, or to live their lives as empty depressed shells in holding (why do they take belts away from prisoners after all?) or those horses that end up in the hands of killer buyers. That roundups conducted now have nothing to do with range conditions or staving horses and everything to do with the Ruby Pipeline. Cattle will be next anyway – the socialist program, aka “welfaire ranching”, is not sustainable and energy needs will push every one out eventually, there will be no elk or deer or sheep (which are not indegenous by the way) for hunting interests.

      Where are your pictures of the land you claim the horses destroyed and exaclty where, longitude and latitude is that land. It would be interesting to check for cattle grazing there. I would at least need a full historical accounting of that land from more than one scientific source to agree with you.

      Your historical information is faulty. The Pryor horse for one have been genetically verified to have been from two sources – over 500 years ago from the Spanish conquistadors and later from over 200 years ago from the Lewis and Clark expedition. I do not doubt that some other horse have been released in the area, but they must be few because genetically they do not appear to have had much impact.

      I would greatly appreciate direction to some web sites about the history of the Calico horses – of which I know less about. But I will counter point this – what is the historical story behind mice, rabbitss, wild pigs, etc. Versus the historical story you have given about the horses. It appears from you argument that the wild horses ARE NOT just another wildlife, but are in fact and should be given in my opinion historical wildlife desigation.

      Genetical viability is an important component of “sustainable numbers”. If I am off track here, I’m sure others will help me – but as I understand it, the BLM’s own geneticist, Gus Cothran has said 200 to 250 is needed for genetic viability. That 100 to 120 is a bare minimum (on the brink I take it). BLM has somehow decided that 100 to 120 is thier goal. They have stated, almost a direct quote “what if there is a bad feeze or other event and 1/2 of them die” as a foundation for claiming the need for the lower number. Well, my answer – EXACTLY. 1/2 of 250 would give the herd a fighting chance, 1/2 of 120 and you can kiss them all goddbye.

      I’ll let others address the original Iberian horse comment. I’ve gone on too much already, but do appreciate your opinion and point of view and awaite your next comments. These are the kinds of discussions we need.

  31. sandra longley Says:

    Have any of the rest of you noticed…how the BLM employees-try to make sure they are not photographed or videoed face on…That has to be an ugly job…I know they are just trying to make a living, and don’t set policy..but surely they must also question this winter gather…maybe what we should be looking for is a whistle blower that has inside information..I really don’t think we ought to focus on getting into it with the ranchers…it will really only the hurt the generational small rancher-who barely hangs on, and usually he -his wife and family members have other jobs in town to subsidise their way of life…its another part of our heritage we are losing…big corporations use the cattle business as a write off against other sources of income…they are not as effected by a boycott as the small rancher…hey we don’t need to fight on too many frounts…this is now a fight with the DOI, and salazar, this is being implemented from the top down…the BLM is doing what they are told to by those holding the strings of power…This is a Ken Salazar directive.

  32. sandra longley Says:

    Louie: I headed over there after your request, and made a few posts, Last night I went to the west palm beach Examiner article…which was very good..there were actually 2 articles there…they did a fantastic job of questioning what was going on…We need support from across the country..in every nook and corner…Has anyone organised to give talks at schools, alot of children have seen the cloud videos…and kids are a powerful voice, we should ask for their help. Salazar is getting hammered on his facebook page..LOL-hey its a public forum…everyone should post there on a regular basis…its tying up business..and informing those that go to the DOI homepage..that…Houston..we have a problem-also check the boxes section, good place to leave a detailed message..the wall is a good place to get attention tho..eventually he will have to answer, block us from the website, or close down his facebook

  33. LOUIE COCROFT Says:

    ALL OF YOU ARE LIGHT YEARS AHEAD OF ME. I’M JUST LEARNING TO NAVIGATE ON THE WEB.

    • Laura Evans Says:

      Don’t feel bad, Louie, I find something of interest and can never get it all together or can’t seem to post it and while I’m trying to remember it all I end up losing something.

  34. LOUIE COCROFT Says:

    I GOT THE CORPORATION/GRAZING PERMITS INFO ON THE ANIMAL WELFARE INSTITUTE WEBSITE. THERE ARE 5 PAGES OF MYTHS AND FACTS. IT IS ON A LINK ON THIS BLOG, BUT I CAN’T, AT THE MOMENT, REMEMBER WHERE.

  35. LOUIE COCROFT Says:

    WOW! JUST READ THE COMMENTS–YOU GUYS NAILED IT! I’M STILL SEARCHING FOR MORE STATS AND DATA. YOU NEVER KNOW WHO IS READING THOSE.

  36. Joly Says:

    Hi, all. I’ve had some experience with animal protection, and would like to comment about something. In the television coverage I have seen, the argument presented against the roundups is that it is the same thing that was done to the Indians. My experience is that this is a losing argument for the horses and will not assist the Indian nations either.

    Since news coverage is brief, the image the public comes out with is about Indians and our nation’s history. It is not about the horses. The issues regarding Indian nations is complex, and is best left as a separate topic altogether. What was done to the Indians will not affect what people know, feel or do about horses.

    The best tool is knowledge, which is why secrecy is being enforced by those who want what they want at any cost. So is it vital to get the images across quickly and succinctly. Realize that the public is almost entirely lacking in knowledge of this topic. What will affect them, is the brutality; but how will they know, if we are giving other images?

    Also, very, very important: It is never enough to tell people what not to do, we also have to be told what to do. So if the horses are to remain, and let’s say a genuine energy crisis is at hand, what is the solution? Give the truth up front, stick to the point, and come up with right things to do.

    Remember that only caring about the horses will give the moral strength to protect them. The brutality, which the public will not expect, is the main point, but in addition it is mandatory to express why it is important for the horses to be free. There are three issues: freedom (why), methods (brutal, cover-up), and what is behind it (better solutions). If you can prove the hidden agendas or arouse well-founded suspicions of it, you will tap into the power of the goodness of the American people.

    God bless.

    • Roxy Says:

      Joly. Where did you read or see in the news the comparison to how we treated the Indians? I have not seen that anywhere. That has been expressed by come advocates on the comment pages only that I know of.

      All of your other points are very well taken and excellent reminders of what we need to do. Thank you for these points.

      I think we all try to do that, but solutions have been offered to BLM for decades and just ignored, so frustration does creep in and we try to correct course and move forward. We must endeavor at all times with the press and in letters to editors to keep emotions out of the education part – anyone delving into this issue will undoubtably come to thier own emotional conclusions anyway – would seem unavoidable to me.

  37. Ray Says:

    Note to moderation, I gather you are not a big fan of free speech or a differing opinion.

    Ray Reynolds

    • Roxy Says:

      Huh?

      • Ray Says:

        Thank You Roxy, I am glad you have an open mind.

        If I may address both your posts here, My original comment was submitted Feb 4th 2010 and sat for a week while other’s comments were being promptly posted. Surely you can see why I wrote the second snide comment to the moderator.

        The Calico roundup had gone the full practical and legal course before being acted upon, meaning the management agency (blm) was deemed correct in its finding by a court of law. I appreciate your love of horses but this process demands of you a more compelling argument than that love. Hell even the Sierra Club supported this gather.

        I wish my genetic info source was better than wikipedia but no thats the best I got. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mustang_(horse)

        Horses are an invasive specie, foreign and without effective preditors. There are many plots testing a lions ability to curb horse numbers, they have failed that test, deer number plummit and horses numbers skyrocket…..ok got a better plan? There are a whole lot of people would like to hear it, these gather are expensive and starvation is no way to treat anything.

        Why should we who support and enjoy biodiversity live with your sole passion for horses? Why must we pay a higher food cost so your favorite creature can displace a crutial industy? Beef is good, deer are great to see….love elk. I pay (as a taxpayer) well educated wildlife managers to mangae wildlife, it seems unfair to drag them to court every time your pet creature hogs the resourses.

        Ya just recently I got a phone that takes photos but I have not been called to the south desert, and actually since the rancher moved out its unlikely he will call to repair a well if not for his cattle.

        Also and a bit gruesome but have you given much thought to lion or pack of coyotes bringing down wildlife?

        Oh and here and around Range 69E Township 30 N MDR is Goshute Valley, the valley floor and north along the Goshute Mountains. The feed is gone and the springs are wallowed to mudholes.

    • Roxy Says:

      Ray, Anyway THIS IS AN ADVOCACY website. We get all the differing opinions we need directly from BLM, Robert Abbey and Don Glenn, and others, and from DOI, Den Salazar. If BLM would open up dialogue and hold roundtable discussions there would be an opportunity for free speech and point counter point.

      Further, Ray, where is the differing opinion free speech website? I have scoured all pro BLM sites, the Cattoor site, and the anti-wild horse sites and THERE AREN’T ANY! Afraid of what? The truth?

      BLM’s definition of free speech means:

      ~They invite us to the meetings, give a paultry 3 minutes per speeker, are not allowed to talk to the commenter or even say “yes or no” (some have even slept through the presentations!),

      ~They never any acknowledgment that other solutions and ideas (differing opinions as you put it) have been brought to the table,

      ~They asked one time for our opinions on their web site, then in public give erroneous responses with no means for the advocates to counter point,

      ~They make public declarations, such as gathers are open to observers anytime, then renig.

      BLM needs a new definition of “free speech”, and further they need a definition in their vocabulary of “honor”. Or better yet, lets remove BLM from the equation all together. Its obvious from the meetings, which are on-line by the way, that they seldom even mention “horses or burros”. Their primary goal is the “protection of policies and management” – you will find this thousands of times from them. Its time for a new agency that is focused on real ecology, biology and the welfare of all the public lands and the welfare of our wild horses are supposed to have the PRIMARY benefit of.

    • Roxy Says:

      Ray this post does not allow a reply to a reply to a reply. Therefore this is a reply to your 8:58 PM blog.

      All – feel free to jump in – and if I have misrepresented something please advice.

      I can see we are going to have to number each item – to stay focused and not ramble and intertwine.

      1. I too was blocked for awhile due to some computer cliche. I wrote a nice request to the “contact us” link. Anyway you did not answer my previous question – where is the BLM or contractor sponsored open free speech?

      2. Your take on the judges decision and comments is not reflective of the actual events – suggest go back and look again at the whole thing – the judge did not find in favor of BLM. The trial does not even start until April. The judge did not grant an injunction – that’s all – in preliminary, however he did warn BLM that that the court could not find any legality for warehousing the horses and suggested they NOT go ahead with the roundup.

      3. Wikipedia article you posted – Where does it say the horses are invasive and destructive? Note – recently the UK is re-introducing wild horses due to their “contribution” to healthy ecology and the biodiversity they bring. Ken Salazar himself said (not that I believe what he says necessarily) when selling his idea of wild horse zoos that the horses would improve and enrich the grazing lands of the east and Mideast. Other wild life ecologists have already said that same thing.

      If you were trying to make some point about native/feral – I suggest you read your link again, along with Wikipedia article on “Wild Horses”. Both the one you linked and the one on Wild Horses clearly state the DNA proof of the origin of the horse – N. America. And it’s really not the issue. There is historic value. If there weren’t we would all be eating bald eagles? This history in the Wikipedia article make it clear to me that the horses are to be protected, as you have already indicated even you do not want them all gone. Likewise we do not want them treated inhumanely in order to manage them and we want BLM to at least leave the number of horses their own geneticist recommends, which BLM has done neither of these. We further believe that there have to be lots of other alternatives, many have been proposed to deaf ears, some have been implemented such as PZP which has proven effective in other wild horse populations, many alternatives are yet to be discovered if only real dialogue could be had. I think you and I at least would find we are not that far apart, and if BLM would just stop and listen in earnest solutions would be discovered.

      3. Where is your documentation regarding the mountain lions being ineffective predators? I know we have some folks that blog on this site that are very much into wildlife ecology the many conservation studies and trials over the years and I believe they will be able to dispute your claim. I will leave that to them. Where are these many “plots” you indicate occurring to test this? Please provide links. You say: “…they have failed that test, deer number plummit and horses numbers skyrocket…..ok got a better plan?” First you are going to have to do better than this and provide actual empirical evidence from some credentialed ecologist types.

      4. Beef is not good enough to me as a taxpayer to continue to support a failed socialist program, aka “welfare ranching” that costs us taxpayers in direct and indirect costs over $5 million dollars a year – Cato Policy Analysis 1995. Especially when the USDA says that most USA beef is EXPORTED, most of what we eat in USA is IMPORTED, I’m told, not going to verify or debate because it really is not important to me, from South America. Frankly we’d all be better off if we did eat deer and elk. I already eat almost entirely chicken anyway. It is fact that cattle are destructive invasive creatures, so yes I want them off my public lands where they have taken wild horse range.

      5. You said: “Also and a bit gruesome but have you given much thought to lion or pack of coyotes bringing down wildlife?” Uh, yeh. I think I can speak for everyone here, yeh, we all went to high school and some to college and took biology. I was born on a huge cattle and horse ranch, grew up on a farm, been hunting, etc.. And, there is PBS Nature (where I found the Cloud shows) – we’ve all seen that! Actually, most all wildlife that does succumb to starvation, they either just die from it, or are taken down by a predator as they are not longer among the fittest, either way that is natures way, they then become food for other animals. Is BLM going to round up the other wildlife because it “might” starve some day? If you asked those almost 40 horses that have died and still counting, and the 30 that have aborted and still counting, and the foals put down after agonizing hoof sloughing where would they rather have died – what do you think their “natural instinct” would tell you.

      6. You said: “Range 69E Township 30 N MDR is Goshute Valley, the valley floor and north along the Goshute Mountains. The feed is gone and the springs are wallowed to mudholes.” We’ll look into that, since you only provided a partial answer. Thanks for the location; we’ll check out the history and scientific background. So far I’ll tell you that the ecologists who have been invited out by cattle ranchers to witness wild horse devastation – well it did not turn out to prove them right. One of the reports is on this web site somewhere, or its link is mentioned.

      7. Sierra Club. Well, not exactly. I wrote to them to try to determine their bizarre joining with the Safari Club. They responded that they had not supported anywhere at any time BLM wild horse program – that they were in fact neutral. That however, they were independent of their state chartered sections that may have done so on a local level.

      8. You said: “…these gather are expensive and starvation is no way to treat anything.” So you are saying that the BLM employee committed perjury in testimony to Congress that the Calico range forage was more than adequate? I suggest you watch the videos of the horses photographed in October and of the horses that entered the chutes. Where are these starving horses? No one has yet to provide any evidence, other than at the hands of BLM or their holding site contractors themselves. BLM even fences the horses away from water and they still survive – recommend “Stampede to Oblivion” by George Knapp. Frankly I’m sick of these starving horses – its chicken little, it can’t be taken seriously any longer. One day it may be true and no one will believe them – but we have enough people going out and examining the range and the horses, so this would probably end up being reported.

      9. Yes I do love the wild horses. But hat is not even paramount to me. I am anti government wasteful spending, especially when it “appears” to be corrupt, the answers and process is broken, and people are getting rich at the expense of my tax dollars and at the expense of the animals. I am anti cruelty to animals in whatever form. I an anti destruction of any wildness unless that is the only source of food and winter protection. I’m past age to camp out like I would like and used to do. And I’m past age to take on an adoption. But I had a wild horse as a child some 55+ yrs ago and I want future generations to be able to also, and I want them to be able to go to our public lands and see wild horses.

      Its late – did not do spell check.

  38. Karen L. Says:

    A bit off topic, but have you seen the news that Ingersoll, Rooney et al have filed to stop the Eagle roundup? It lists the law firm as the plaintiff from what I see(?) I’m going to try to link it—have had trouble with linking from IDA before…
    http://www.idanews.org/ida-breaking-news/feds-wild-horse-program-faces-new-lawsuit-over-another-huge-roundup/

    • Karen L. Says:

      The new lawsuit has been linked at the “Good Morning, America” thread on this blog by sandra longley as well.

  39. LOUIE COCROFT Says:

    KAREN, THANK YOU. THAT’S ANOTHER SOURCE THAT I CAN USE.

  40. LOUIE COCROFT Says:

    THE MORE LAWSUITS, THE BETTER. THEY SHOULDN’T EVEN BE CONTINUING THE CURRENT ROUND-UP. IT WAS AGREED TO THAT ALL ROUND-UPS WOULD STOP UNTIL THE CASE IS SETTLED IN THE SPRING. THERE SHOULD BE ARMED GUARDS GOING IN TO STOP THEM! THAT NEEDS TO BE MADE PUBLIC AS WELL.

    • Karen L. Says:

      I think the new suit is quite significant in that it appears Mr. Spriggs (who ROCKS!) is taking the fight to them! He says he’ll use the ‘probably shouldn’t warehouse and transport’ idea he gleaned from Judge Friedman against them.

    • Roxy Says:

      Louie, yes, BLM agreed to stop the roundup, on the side though I think, so it was not part of anything that can be enforced. That is why an injunction for an immediate stop was not filed. Just another example of BLM snake oil salesman techniques. Just like they did to Laura Leigh to make her think they were listening to her, have done this to Ginger Kathrens a couple of times too. Monty Roberts will be posting a letter he wrote on his web site – he was given the same treatment, told BLM would work with him in first disucssions, then bam! Nothing! Door slammed!

      We have to stop believing what these people say and taking them at their “word”. The good “word” of gentlemen or cowboys means nothing to these BLM people. They wil look you in the eye, shake your hand, then stab you in the back without even a blink.

    • Karen L. Says:

      Louie, In the Calico suit, the temporary (28 day) injunction was granted as they waited for a court date for the hearing on the PERMANENT injunction—I think that date was maybe Dec. 15 or 16. At the December hearing, Judge Friedman DENIED the request for the permanent injunction, thus allowing the roundup to go forward. (And it did) However, he advised the BLM that “transporting and warehousing ” the horses probably is illegal. He found a sound basis for the suit to proceed, and it will be heard in April. He just would not uphold the need for an INJUNCTION against the roundup. It is complicated.

      Now, however, Mr. Spriggs has filed for an injunction in the Eagle roundup. It is my understanding that he is using the findings of Judge Friedman in the Calico decision to fuel his arguments for a permanent injunction in the Eagle case. Good attorneys do things like this—they can cause “trouble”, buy time, raise public awareness, etc., etc. Right now is excellent timing for “testing” new legal strategies.

  41. LOUIE COCROFT Says:

    ON THE “BUY LOCAL TOPIC”, I LISTENED TO A RADIO SHOW AND A WOMAN CALLED IN WHO LIVES RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE OF AMISH AND MENNONITE COUNTRY. SHE SAYS THAT THEY ONLY BUY FROM ONE ANOTHER AND THE COMMUNITY IS THRIVING. ONE OF THE BIG CORPORATE STORES PUT A LOT OF MONEY IN A STORE THERE–EVEN BUILT A HUGE COVERED BUILDING FOR THEIR HORSES AND BUGGYS–THEY WON’T GO NEAR IT.

  42. Savewildhorses Says:

    Thank you, Elyse, for putting on this talk last night. It was good to get out from behind the keyboard and meet others who care. Thank you for being the voice and eyes of the horses at Calico and Fallon.

  43. Sandra Miller Says:

    The Calico Roundup ended with 1922 mustangs captured, 39 dead, and 25-30 mares who aborted their late term foals in the “feedlot style facility outside of Fallon, Nevada.” In addition, I understand the 1922 mustangs captured are now going to disappear down a deep, black hole, with no accounting for them, their welfare, or their ultimate fate. Shouldn’t we be focusing on this situation? Why no vet reports? Will a Humane Observer be present? I have seen it written that it would be impossible to get the removed horses back to their original ranges because no one knows which those are. We have 1922 mustangs that we DO know about. We need complete records on these horses, each one, down to physical descriptions and photos. We should think positive, think ahead, and find a way to force the BLM to properly process these horses and do so in a public way. How can they disappear with our horses this way? As terrible as this whole episode has been for the horses which have died, what can we do for the ones still alive? Maybe Elyse Gardner has some ideas? I think I’ll write to Robert Abbey and tell him that I am looking forward to winning the In Defense of Animals lawsuit against the BLM and therefore expect his agency to process each removed horse and burro carefully so I know where they belong and can help make sure they are returned to their original homes!

    • Marilyn Wargo Says:

      From the initial leasing of the Fallon facility, it will be a short term holding which will likely hold these horses for up to 2 years. i am dismayed they will process them as if they are never to be returned to the wild; freeze brands and gelding, PZP… but if they are not taken away, they could conceivable be returned to the range.. even if they do not quite get them where they were they will be in their former ecosystem. That BLM has the gaul to collect horses and not keep track of them is something We must be responsible for. they have kept observers from recording all the horses. This is now a harder to accomplish goal, but We need to do it. We need to know all of our horses on all their ranges as well as those who have guardian watchers who have named them all from Pryor to Spring Creek Basin and Little Book Cliffs. Because they are our horses it is time to know them and protect them and have a file on every single one. There are not so many and it will not be so hard. Then we can also work to keep our long term holding horses save and returned to wild lands for their safety and health even if they will not be reproducing herds. I think thee is time to get the most recent removed horses back where they came from. mar

  44. sandra longley Says:

    The DOI has posted they were opening a portal on their website for discussion and ideas to be presented-that was friday morning..I went there and it wasn’t up yet…I have been posting everyday on his (Salazars) facebook page, asking questions and generally making a nuisance of myself hoping to get a forum…a couple uf us dominated over there and I am hoping we had something to do with it…Please use that forum along with everything else..Let us show proof that we have ideas , solutions, and valid questions… My first suggestion(besides moratorium) is that every one of the states involved in these roundups have a qualified board of representitives…who are familiar with the mustangs, the habitat of their states, and whose main goal is the welfare and future of the mustangs, and that they have significant input and are independant from the BLM or DOI, and have a seat at the table…He asks for volunteers…but those people MUST have significant input.

    • Marilyn Wargo Says:

      Sandra, this is going to have to be a local effort but advocates may be able to help out and see that there is activity. We need a complete census and we need to establish watchdog groups and have records and documentation done on all the herds. it s great that many of us have come to this conclusion at the same time. e need to establish how to and exactly what information to collect on the horses, their water sources and the presence and location of fences. We need to know the number of cattle on their range. We need to learn about the grasses and forbs the horses eat. We need to have a few boot camps where we can train people and get them out to do this work and they can then help set up local groups to keep the work going. The information would not be for the forced removals and roundups that BLM does but to fight that system and replace it with better and real science based management… Volunteers who care and are committed can do this work. Nevada and Wyoming will be a big challenge but we can do this. I hope that many of you consider using some time this summer to help get this done… mar

      • Roxy Says:

        Marilyn,

        This reminds me, there may be money available for organized groups to do this.

        I had a co-worker, that every year for his vacation he and his wife and a group of Mule owners went out and helped repair trailes. And they did it under some program that picked up some expenses.

        I think I have read the same for weekend groups, under probably Parks systems. But maybe there is another source of money other than Parks.

        Some of these areas will be off limits for weekenders as they are too remote.

  45. sandra longley Says:

    My next question is, does anyone know of anyone in central oregon(the bend area) that you could get me in touch with? I need to find a group of people in this area to start attending democratic party meetings here with me once a month…most of the time, they have political figures attending, that we could raise our concerns with. I would like to put together a packet of information to take with me to the many horse groups in this community and would appreciate any help you could provide…we need to make a organised effort-I have seen alot of terrific information here and ideas, we need to find a way(through the cloud foundation????) or such, to provide that for handouts to groups…any ideas on how to do that? One site or web pages that we could go to to access everyones information and research results??

    • Marilyn Wargo Says:

      Sandra, If we do this it should become a data bank for the horses. Starting state by state and then becoming something like the Western Wild Horse Registry, a Data Bank for the Preservation, Management and Protection of Our Wild Herds. It could evolve into a 501 and get grant money for a center. This is what I have been working on and named it…. tentatively. The information Should Not be Online but we would control it as it is not for government use until and unless we have established new management practices for ALL our wild herds, including those off of BLM radar. I hope to have some contact with people to help create the information lists we will be attempting to find in the field from horses colors and ages and band affiliation to the areas and foods they eat. I am very excited about doing this and making our horses and burros truly the herds of the American people. Maybe it is time we begin to work on this together? I am so glad that you want to do this!! mar

    • Roxy Says:

      Sandra, yes, the Cloud Foundation has kits for every purpose and one sheet fact lists for handouts, etc. They are alrady on thier web page, but there is so much I don’t know where to direct you – you might poke around there a little. Or send them an e-mail on thier web page “Contact Us” and they will get you pdf’s and you can print as many as you need.

  46. sandra longley Says:

    I started some research yesterday morning based on a question Louie had asked a ways back…about who owned soldiers meadows(did the government supply those pens in that gather?) Which, like all research-is like following a treasure map…one thing to another…anyway soldier meadows is advertised ‘for sale” over 2 million dollars, for 6500 deeded acres, and 200,00 acres with public land…so that means around 193,000 of public land( I believe they did something with a conservatory there) anyway in an article this Jim Kudnra who owns this ranch and runs a bed and breakfast, and cattle operation…and as i found out later spent his life as a real estate broker,,,before buying the ranch…is interviewed as they are setting up the pens on his ranch before the gather—where he states the horses have ruined several springs on his ranch ect…the usual dialogue….and says ” the ranch has 500,000 acres and very little use of public land by his cattle… so my first question was…hum…if this is private land..why isn’t it fenced??/why are the horses able to get to his springs???Isn’t that your responsibility…so further research led me to a website of “the friends of blackrock” where he is a board member…this is the wesite that gave me his background as well as other board members..they are residents of Gerloch…and are apparently all against the wild mustangs and support removal….However…and this is a hoot….they support the “burning man” gather…ing.. in Gerlock…LOL…Anyway, my philosopy is..know your friends…but know your enemies better…get inside of their heads..know their arguments, and posistions, and develope, arguments to rebutt them,,( I worked as a researcher for the Assistant U.S. Attorney of Calif….and spent many days and nights in a law library, finding points and athorities for cases)

    • Marilyn Wargo Says:

      Sandra, I remember reading that, too. You should go to read Katie Fite’s article from Western Watersheds. It is very detailed about the fences and the illegal cattle and the legal cattle… It is linked from Cloud blog… and at Elyse Gardner’s Humane Observer site. She will answer your questions better than anyone I can think of. If we become a presence with the horses we will establish “standing” which is a legal term and maybe you can help me get a good definition for it? If we gather the info on the herds and establish “standing” then we can defend them in court and help others do so with the information. Please go to the Cloud Foundation and ask for my email, Sandra.. This is the work I want to do from now on… It can be done with a minimum of cost and volunteers. mar

    • Roxy Says:

      Not very good advertizing for his land! I keep asking these people to provide pictures of the damage caused by horses – they never do. Don’t even cowboys have cell phones with cameras in them?

      In an interview, a rancher took the person out to a water hole to show how the horese had ruined it and pooped all around. Ther interviewer, knowing ghd diference bewteen cow and horse poop asked him, “So where is the horse poop? All there is here is cow poop.”

      Now the horses are gone, the dead brush they would have eaten during the rest of winter will pile up, and next year will pile up – wild fires! We get to pay our tax dollars for more intensive fire fighting too, likely to save his ranch! Domino effect.

  47. sandra longley Says:

    More information found-was in an article(which i will have to go back and find) on the Ruby Pipeline….a camp is being built there to house 600 workers…Wells are being drilled for water to supply the camp…and yet they are claiming water is too scarce to leave the horses there….Why isn’t the Blm investing in wells for the horses that supply water.. auto…to those troughs….certainly cheaper than trucking them across countryto a new home…I remember when I worked on a ranch in N. Nevada there were old time windmills that filled troughs across the desert…they were for the blm cattle leases, but served the horses as well. The ruby pipeline company insists they do not need the horses removed..I think we will have to use the FOI act to get to the bottom of what is being gaureented by the DOI on these leases and just exactly “fast tracking “means in terms of the process…I think toyota was ‘fastracking” and the government was assisting that fast track as well…and that can be the end result of “cutting through the red tape” as Salazar put it.

    • Marilyn Wargo Says:

      Sandra, We need to know the location of this camp. If over 3,000 horses were thriving and there was illegal cattle on their range year round and there was also legal cattle and they were not starving or dying of thirst then I would say there was water for all. Now comes this over priced pipeline which, to me, is not the best use for energy for the low number of people it will serve and the temporary workers it will employe. I would love to see it stopped and never begun. The comment process is happening right now. We all need to say that we do not even want this expensive pipeline. It will destroy much pristine land. It is said that this was a huge mistake for the Sierra Club to have gotten involved in. People just do not realize that the amount of money to go into this project could help far more in a better thought out energy program. mar

  48. LOUIE COCROFT Says:

    MAR, I LIKE THE IDEA OF A “BOOT CAMP” TRAINING CENTER. I THINK THERE MUST BE A GRANT SOMEHOW AVAILABLE–THERE SEEM TO BE GRANTS FOR EVERYTHING ELSE. I AM SEEING SO MANY TALENTED, DEDICATED PEOPLE COMING INTO THIS. POOLING ALL THAT KNOWLEDGE AND EXPERIENCE CAN REALLY GALVANIZE THIS. I CAMPARE THIS GROUP TO A CUTTING HORSE, AS IT IS MOVING FAST!

    • Marilyn Wargo Says:

      Louie, there is no time for grants unless you wish to attempt to pin down a very nebulous group of people and get us funding. I will be doing what I can on my own and I have no time to wait. None of us do. This is all volunteer. Money will be sought when we have something to need it for; a place to put our info and use it from. That is way off, a year or more away. For now WE need to do the work on our own. Believe me, I am not the only person who is wanting to do this. It will be very inexpensive and people need to be careful and learn to use topographical maps. I will be wanting to be sure people who go out in the field know what they are doing. mar

  49. mustangdreams... Cat Kindsfather Says:

    WOW….I just popped in and I am amazed and delighted to read all of this brain storming and positive networking!! Awesome thread of brilliant ideas and communications every one!! Run with it…………..

  50. mustangdreams... Cat Kindsfather Says:

    Mar,Sandra, louie….Great ideas!!

  51. sandra longley Says:

    So many good ideas and information!!!! Thank you all, keep it coming!!! I hate to research something someone else has already got covered, it sure frees up my time..It is so overwhelming at times…where to start and what questions need answers..I am going to concentrate on cut and paste of everyones information into a file then organise it by topic, so i can easily refer back to it and add info…Unfortunately the “urgentcy of now” is breathing down our backs…every miniute is ticking on the survival of the horses…once they start shipping them out..we are going to have a difficult time getting them back…unless they find a loophole in the law…they have to put these horses up for adoption 3 times before then can take alternative measures…or(which is critical)they have to be over 10 years old…which those older groups of horses tend to be the leaders-the young learn from the old…and those older horses know the migratory patterns and locations of forage and water holes,and the young learn from the old and then can take over. On so many common sense levels…this is so wrong and ill concieved…I see at the burns oregon holding facility they gathered 1000 horses, I studied every picture of the 1,000 individual horsesMost were banged up from one end to the other-the kind of wounds that come from long hauls in semis. There was no information there about deaths or injurys and i don’t know if there were observers there or not…I am going to find out…but I did find a PDF with their statistics for 27 HMAs in oregon, no’s of horses, present and fuure…and all were based on estimates, not actual head counts…not a very scientific way of basing the present and future method of management for the good of the land or the horses..I think we have to demand a more varifiable accounting…for instance, I found Australia has implemented a program to varify grazing programs by attaching gps collars to the brumbies….the same should be done to the cattle and horses on BLM lands…actually verify patterns..We all know, horses travel alot further in a day..up to 50 miles. and with GPS you can see the sattelite PICTURES of the ground they are covering and where they are grazing as opposed to this finger pointing between cattlemen and mustang protectors…There is science available, lets demand they use it…Salazar is asking for ideas and solutions…lets give it to them and demand they use it before they remove the horse..This should have been used by the BLM years ago…this is not new technology…What the hell have they been using their budget for???

    • Roxy Says:

      Sandra, Great ideas. I will start “cataloging” comments and articles also.

      Other great idea GPS. Some others have proposed micro chips to identify horses going to slaughter and where they came from. But GPS would allow so much grazing ans watering info and patterns.

      The money, yes, this is a question for Congress and GAO. Waite a minute – GAO already did report that BLM was in need of investigation, accountability and auditing. Whew! Just all very fishy to me – if it looks like a fish, smells like a fish, it probably is a fish!

      • sandra longley Says:

        Yes and the GPS photos can zoom in to show if the horses are wiping out the vegetation in the area s they are grazing. I want real tangible proof given-unbiased, non political and not subjective…otherwise this is always going to be a he-she said argument…I looked back at articles from the 1800s’ to now and the argument has remained the same…no one has proved their point…Its time to prove it…you don’t hear cattlemen calling for GPS s to monitor their cattles grazing patterns -do you-I think we all know they would not support it for obvious reasons.go look at the graphs generated in Australia from this method…very interesting

      • Janet Ferguson Says:

        Great work everybody what a great blog. I’m just poppin’ in to place an article link — Grasslands, Nature Conservancy working with ranchers. . .

        http://www.nature.org/grasslands/

    • Roxy Says:

      Sandra, also what would I “search” to find the Burns, Oregon pictures and information?

    • Marilyn Wargo Says:

      Sandra, like Karen said, BLM will back stab us and we need to be able to function on our own. I do wish you would help us define Standing, as it is something which will help us establish legal rights to work with the herds.

      If you expect BLM to upgrade to satellites now when they are still barbarians using violence on these wild ones, please think again. Have they ever done anything we ask??? If their Public Relations tells them they do it. That is who makes decisions in BLM that are visible to us. Like stopping the roundup when they did because they looked so bad. Like putting up some wind breaks. We do not at this time effect policy change at BLM. If we could we would have video cameras on the helicopters and the holding pens. It makes sense to. There is no way we will get that. A judge would have to order it. You will see that we must not depend upon them. We and the wild ones cannot. I want cooperation but I do not want to be a pawn in their game.

      They have been using 62% of their budget??? please help me someone, for feeding horses in long term holding. More horses more costs. it may be over 70%. Then they spend the rest on the contractors to round up more horses…
      The cycle we need to break by standing up to them. they will try to quell as many of us as they can with their PR department. It is not going to work. mar

    • Marilyn Wargo Says:

      Sandra, this is the great tragedy of the BLM management. These are ‘lost’ horses.
      Only freeze brands will tell you where horses are from. That youngsters are born into captivity and not adopted is a shame. This tangled mess needs to be addressed, here in the West and on lands the horses already ‘own’ and can be used to allow the geldings to live out their lives, maybe with some healthy horses thrown in. This is more practicable than even Madeleine’s plan. The Calico horses will be in the Fallon pens more than a year. In that time they may be released if we are able to get those captured in recent years released home. The lack of documentation makes any recovery hard. At Pryor this would never happen. At Spring Creek when a gray stallion was taken in a roundup instead of another, locals went to Canon City to find him and demand his return. It took a couple months but he came home. There is a film about it. mar

      • Karen L. Says:

        Think court action, Mar! Think go IDA! Think give ’em hell, Mary Landrieu! Maybe the horses won’t be warehoused this time next year.

      • Janet Ferguson Says:

        Craig Downer stated you could repatriate all the horses in holding to the range + 8,000 more — he said this within the last 2 years.

      • Marilyn Wargo Says:

        JF, Hold that thought close…

        Long term holding is illegal and the only place the horses can afford to be is
        Home On the Range!!!

        Yep, IDA and Mr. Spriggs You Go!!

        I can’t wait until Mary Landrieu gives BLM hell again…. mar

  52. sandra longley Says:

    I noticed BLM offers a “program” for volunteers at their website that requires training beforehand…I haven’t looked into that to see what is involved or what restrictions there are.

    • Roxy Says:

      I’ve read somewhere that you have to sign a confidentiallity clause to volunteer at BLM.

      I think Marilyn’s idea of our own system of accounting for horses on the range and in holding will have great improtance and impact on future BLM actions and future lawsuits.

      I fear, that anything short of Presidential intervention at this time will leave us on this campaign for a while. Though as indicated today, BLM has not, except for Wild Horse Annie, experienced the outcry and public angst that is going on by us. Yea us!

      • Marilyn Wargo Says:

        Rox, i cannot find your money comment. I will be working in areas and living there while I work. I will not be a weekender and anyone who wants to help will have to take care of themselves for however long they will be around. (I will attempt to schedule places to have the census) I hope you do camping. I will put together a booklet for field volunteers when I have done consulting on it with people. I think boot camp will be at my travel trailer. I may be able to put up one other full time volunteer or a revolving one. The idea will be to tackle one herd area at a time. Boot camp will be in Colorado where the horses have some documentation already and we can get help from the locals who are already involved. That is how this project will get off the ground. By doing it. I will join the Cloud Foundation’s Community Organizers and I think all of you should, and I hope that TCF will be my associate in this. I think we are talking about it… sort of! mar

      • Janet Ferguson Says:

        what will they do to you if you sign a confidentiality clause to work with them and then disregard it. . . .

        FIRE YOU????????

      • Roxy Says:

        Janet, that depends on the conditions in the confidentialily clause. Could include monitary retribution for damages.

        Only brought this up due to what ones intentions might be to volunteer – make sure you read the documents carefully before signing.

    • sandra longley Says:

      good point….send you to guantanamo…deprogram you and bury you out in the desert…I mean its the BLM not homeland security
      Have you been over to the DOI comment section yet?…I think I completed my graffiti attack on salazars wall on face book..LOL

  53. sandra longley Says:

    The perception of government, and cattlemen and a significant amount of citizenry is that those who support the mustangs roaming free…are that we are a bunch of left wing, eccoterrorist, hand wringing, emotional based thinkers, who have never been out of the city and don’t have the faintest idea of what we are talking about..I don’t find that to be true. I want them to know-that hell yes we are emotional about it-But we are also problem solvers…but first we have to realistically and factually identify what and where the problem is…and the most fiscally responsable way to solve that problem…and that is certainly-NOT the way they are going about it..when the american public hears that 95 million is going into this “mustang relocation” project…there is going to be an outcry of anger…What I want to be prepared for..is that large segment of voters who would support slaughtering the animals where they stand- rather than spend ANY money on them, whether that means being fed on the lands they now occupy(which i favor) -or being shipped to pastures eastward..I know that from the last 2 years of working on political campaigns . I was a protester during the vietnam war-I understand the value of that aspect, an I never imagined i would advocate for working within the system….however you need both to get effective change…I would imagine Mustang Annie left this world thinking the mustangs were safe….she was at the for frount of getting a law enacted to protect them forever…what I believe we need in order to get standing-is to get Salazar to agree to giving us a seat at the table on these decisions..otherwise we will be forever chasing our tails, trying to stop something after it has been implemented. Instead of beating on the door(and no one opening it) we can be beating on the table when these decisions are being made. an independant advisory board-not under the control of the DOI or BLM, but a contributor of ideas and solutions,,,Then our voice has serious meaning.

    • Marilyn Wargo Says:

      There is a seat for an advocate on the advisory board. they have never filled it. the board itself is made up of all non horses and hunting and other special interest or no interest people who do not belong there and do not care about anything but what they are paid to be on the board. it is a travesty. The 1971 Act would work if it were implemented but it never was. It was gutted by amendments as early as 1974. I will find you one. mar

      • Marilyn Wargo Says:

        Sandra, Here is something to find for us to read…

        Hi all. I am not a lawyer, just a layperson. But I researched extensively the the legislative history, statutory construction and regulatory history of the WFRHBA for the lawsuit filed by IDA, Craig Downer and Terri Farley against DOI/BLM to stop the Calico roundup. We used a novel legal strategy that had some preliminary success but failed to stop the roundup. The legal team knew this fact going in: The fundamental problem in approaching this issue from a legal standpoint is that the 1978 Public Rangelands Improvement Act amended the WFRHBA and basically gutted it. PRIA gives the Secretary of Interior broad discretion to determine what and where excess horses are and to remove them. They can make the excess determination based on merely all information currently available to the Secretary, no matter how slipshod or invalid. The 1978 PRIA amendments stressed the multiple use concept and removal of horses to maintain a thriving ecological balance and protecting the range from deterioration associated with overpopulation of wild horses and burros. It gutted the provision that required herd areas be managed principally for the benefit of the wild horses. It was in the 1978 PRIA Amendment that the words excess, overpopulation and removal were first introduced into the Act. Its clear, at least to me, that the WFRHBA was amended in large part because of cattle interests.

        As much as we do not like it, this is the reality. This was summarized quite succinctly in a federal Appeals Court decision — AHPA v. Watt that still stands as precedent in the DC Circuit (694 F.2d 1310, 224 U.S.App.D.C. 335):

        The main thrust of the 1978 amendments is to cut back on the protection the Act affords wild horses, and to reemphasize other uses of the natural resources wild horses consume. The amendments introduce a definition of excess horses: horses are in excess if they must be removed from an area in order to preserve and maintain a thriving natural ecological balance and multiple-use relationship in that area. *1317**342 16 U.S.C. § 1332(f) (Supp.IV 1980).FN30 This definition makes explicit what was, at most, implicit in the 1971 Act: public ranges are to be managed for multiple uses, not merely for the maximum protection of wild horses.

        Unfortunate as it is, this is the situation on the legal front.

        Because of the extremely broad discretion given to the Secretary under the 1978 PRIA amendment, it is almost impossible to successfully challenge the BLMs actions, even in zeroing out the herds. Val Stanley did a fantastic job in winning the West Douglas case, and we quoted Judge Collyers decision in that case several times in IDA et al.s pending lawsuit. However, Judge Collyer ruled the way she did on the West Douglas case only because the BLM was so arrogant that it claimed during oral argument that it didnt even need to make an excess determination to remove an entire herd, citing its broad discretion. Judge Collyer specifically pointed out that her decision did not reflect on the legality of BLMs zeroing out a herd if it makes the proper determination of excess spelled out in the Act. That determination is, unfortunately, at the discretion of the BLM, and can be based on merely all information currently available. This goes for any removal whether zeroing out, like West Douglas, or not, such as Calico.

        What this means is that the solution to this problem ultimately, is political and legislative, not legal. So we must continue to build public outrage and opposition to force change.

        It will all come down to Congress and what it does in reaction to the Salazar plan. We must flood the Obama Administration and key House and Senate officials to force them to restore some of the protections that have been taken away from the wild horses and burros and to stop the policy of mass removal and stockpiling, including of course a moratorium on roundups.

        Eric Kleiman
        Research Director, In Defense of Animals
        Please note: This is my personal opinion, not IDAs official position

      • Karen L. Says:

        Mr. Kleiman’s posted comment is excellent. There are attorneys (Laura Allen) who believe the 1971 Act is not trumped by later acts though. Even William Spriggs says Congressional action will eventually be needed—he is trying to get the current issues addressed as they arise so that the need for legislative action will be more clear cut.

  54. sandra longley Says:

    Roxy, I think I googled BLM adoptions, oregon was the only one who posted all horses individually and seem to be doing a better job than the group photos I saw in nevada, and 5 individual horses up for adoption in wyo. Many of those gathered in oregon last nov, came from several hundred miles or so away, and the pictures were obviously taken after their arrival there, as the wounds were fresh, and stallions as yet uncut…By reading the bios on the horses there I was able to tell how long they had been in captivity there..Most of the foals to 2yr.olds had been born in capitivity and never spent a day as a wild horse. One stallion was 21 years old they had cut…and can’t imagine they could possibly adopt him out…many adoptions are online now..I see adoptors from all over the country…but the number of horses they are rounding up cannot possibly adopted-especially in these economic times

  55. sandra longley Says:

    Constructs such as ibid., op. cit. and loc. cit. are discouraged by Wikipedia’s style guide for footnotes as they are easily broken. Please improve this article by replacing them with named references (quick guide), or an abbreviated title.

    Standing or locus standi is the term for the ability of a party to demonstrate to the court sufficient connection to and harm from the law or action challenged to support that party’s participation in the case. In the United States, the current doctrine is that a person cannot bring a suit challenging the constitutionality of a law unless the plaintiff can demonstrate that the plaintiff is (or will imminently be) harmed by the law. Otherwise, the court will rule that the plaintiff “lacks standing” to bring the suit, and will dismiss the case without considering the merits of the claim of unconstitutionality. To sue to have a court declare a law unconstitutional, there must be a valid reason for whoever is suing to be there. The party suing must have something to lose in order to sue unless they have automatic standing by action of law.

    In another major standing case, the Supreme Court elaborated on the redressability requirement for standing.[6] The case involved a challenge to a rule promulgated by the Secretary of the Interior interpreting §7 of the Endangered Species Act of 1973 (ESA). The rule rendered §7 of the ESA applicable only to actions within the United States or on the high seas. The Court found that the plaintiffs did not have the standing necessary to bring suit, because no injury had been established.[13] The injury claimed by the plaintiffs was that damage would be caused to certain species of animals and that this in turn injures the plaintiffs by the reduced likelihood that the plaintiffs would see the species in the future. The court insisted though that the plaintiffs had to show how damage to the species would produce imminent injury to the plaintiffs.[14] The Court found that the plaintiffs did not sustain this burden of proof. “The ‘injury in fact’ test requires more than an injury to a cognizable interest. It requires that the party seeking review be himself among the injured”.[15] The injury must be imminent and not hypothetical.

    Beyond failing to show injury, the Court found that the plaintiffs failed to demonstrate the standing requirement of redressability.[16] The Court pointed out that the respondents chose to challenge a more generalized level of Government action, “the invalidation of which would affect all overseas projects”.[17] This programmatic approach has “obvious difficulties insofar as proof of causation or redressability is concerned”.[

    I got this from the wikipedia site, there may be more current spreme court law…Supreme court decisions bear more weight than any other case law or legislative law..altho i have used dissenting opinions in arguments for or against in a case.

    • Marilyn Wargo Says:

      From the tidbits I have picked up from advocates they are implying that we establish a pattern of familiarity with the horses in a herd and then see them as often as possible and this will establish standing. There are individuals who are doing this on their own and document, photograph and watch the herds they live near. They are the unofficial guardians and watchdogs of local herds. In Colorado we have several. This is needed as a base to keep ongoing documentation going. TJ Holmes does this for the Spring Creek Basin Herd and Billie does it for Little Book Cliffs. This needs to be done with all herds and we must find people able and willing to this. It may seem very hard to do in some places. But if it can be done in Pryor where the land is very rugged, then it can be done in Nevada, California, Oregon, Idaho and Wyoming. I think the last herd in Arizona has someone who is their protector. If we know the numbers and near ages and begin to know much more, we will know more than BLM. I would like to say, ‘Who needs BLM?’ but we shall see…mar

      • Marilyn Wargo Says:

        TJ’s Spring Creek Herd Blog is at word Press and it is a delight to visit. Please go and say hi…

        Little Book Cliffs Wild Horses at Billie’s Space is another blog…. mar

      • Barbara Steele Says:

        When the horses are identified and have names the whole herd becomes not just a bunch of “throw-aways” I will relate again about the Chincoteague Pony herd. There is a group of women who have purchased some of the “buy-backs”–ponies selected by the firemen to be turned back to the island herd. The women now have documented many of the ponies on the island with photographs and even named them. Some people live in the area and hike around on the island to see how they are doing. The firemen know this group is keeping an eye on the ponies and just today after the snow/ice storm the firemen sent an email complete with pictures of the hay that they had delivered to the ponies!

  56. sandra longley Says:

    My guess would be that the public has standing on issues of public owned land (BLM) is the arm of government who administrates and falls under the umbrella of DOI( case in point would be the law firm suing the government to stop the most recent gather(eagle)they are suing as individuals with an interest…Personally I think we should lobby the legislature to “de-fund” the blm, as wasteful spending…LOL

    • Marilyn Wargo Says:

      Sandra, Well, that is what many of us want to do… mar
      From Laura Allen today;
      From: Laura Allen [Edit Address Book]
      To: ‘MARILYN WARGO’
      Subject: RE: Obama Proposes $1.1B for BLM
      Date: Feb 6, 2010 10:42 AM
      Attachments: image001.jpg
      Marilyn, I lay out some of the budgeting numbers in this article: http://www.animallawcoalition.com/horse-slaughter/article/1178 My understanding is that you are right, that this additional $12 million requested for FY 2011 for wild horses and burros is all for holding them in long term facilities and as this says, $42.5 million for one facility to be purchased probably in the east or Midwest. I don’t have more details on this alleged purchase, though. What I would strongly suggest is that you write or call your rep and senators and urge them to de-fund the roundups for FY 2011, put a moratorium on the round ups and call for a hearing or investigation to evaluate the wild horses and burros program going forward. Laura

      From: MARILYN WARGO [mailto:lightprint1949@earthlink.net]
      Sent: Tuesday, February 02, 2010 10:39 PM
      To: Laura Allen
      Subject: Fw: Obama Proposes $1.1B for BLM

      Laura Allen, Will this mean that BLM will get the money to send horses East?? Judge Friedman ? is addressing that in the suit with IDA and Craig that sending horses to long term holding out of their original areas is illegal. I had believed they would never get the budget to buy the land and do the removals East. Now they may? Please tell us what this means. Mar

      —–Forwarded Message—–
      From: vicki tobin
      Sent: Feb 2, 2010 7:56 PM
      To: vicki tobin
      Subject: Obama Proposes $1.1B for BLM

      Obama Proposes $1.1B for BLM …
      Main Street Business Journal
      Today the BLM finds itself in the position of needing to gather thousands of wild horses from overpopulated herds on Western public rangelands at a time …

      Obama Proposes $1.1B for BLM …
      … To Protect Resources and Manage Uses of Public Lands

      • Marilyn Wargo Says:

        For one thing, The horses will be truly disappearing this year. We have to get this decision from Judge Freidman about the long term holding and see where those horses stand then we must have an end to all roundups. In the past, moratoriums on wild life often run up to 10 years. this gives time for field studies and even new management to be put in place and to see how it all works out. We need exactly that type of moratorium. Then we can implement change legally.

        Thanks for the above info. I will get to it … mar

    • Karen L. Says:

      sandra, Sen. Mary Landrieu IS attempting to de-fund the BLM. She began by limiting their current budget under the recent Omnibus bill through her postion on the Appropriations Committee. I was appalled to see the Obama proposal last week—he doesn’t get it! Write to Mary Landrieu at her Senate office, through the Energy and Natural Resources Committee, or through the Appropriations Committee.

  57. Sandra Miller Says:

    Wow! Leave home for a few hours on a Saturday and come home to 30 or so excellent comments added in the meantime. In regard to the 1922 horses now at Fallon, why are they gelding the stallions? – it’s simply an additional expense and a danger to the horses not necessary if the horses were left in the wild, where these things self-regulate. Well, to answer my own question – because this primitive, backward, unimaginative, group of neanderthals who runs the wild horse and burro program for the BLM is doing what has ALWAYS been done for the last 100 years or so when ranchers decided to round up wild horses and use them – shoot the stallions, keep the mares, and bring in their own stallions. BUT WE’RE NOT RANCHING! Who knows what valuable blood lines will be lost this way! And speaking of primitive – what else can you call the use of helicopters? If the horses were viewed by the BLM as having any value whatsoever, none of this would be occurring. I would also call the veterinarians working for the BLM, “ethically challenged”, to be polite. The BLM refers to us, I understand, the “anti gather advocates”. This is incorrect. I am sure we are the “anti BLM management advocates”. I will try to think of everyone I can complain to about the secrecy surrounding the horses at Fallon and write letters. It seems like In Defense of Animals and HSUS would be good places to start.

  58. sandra longley Says:

    can someone contact Elyse and ask her to go to Michael Moore.com and submit an article and her photos and video of the calico roundup? This is a story I think he would be interested in. She obseved it all first hand and has the material to go with it…I think it would be the kind of documentary he would be interested in…thanks-on the right hand side of the page/top is to submit a story

  59. Sandra Miller Says:

    Marilyn, in regard to your comment which just popped into my inbox, beginning, “Sandra, here is something to find for us to read” (addressed to Sandra Longley, I think). I noted this, too, when I first googled the 1971 Wild Free-Roaming Horse and Burro Act – I think there were additions to that act made in both ’76 and ’78. Karen L. gave us the web address for Laura Allen’s article about this matter, which is good to review:
    http://www.animallawcoalition.com/horse-slaughter/article/1081

    In it Laura says, “The Federal Land Policy Management Act requires management of public lands under concepts of multiple use and sustained yield. 43 U.S.C. §§ 1701, et seq. But the multiple use concept does not trump the WFRHBA protections for wild horses. In fact, the statute makes clear that the protections under WFRHBA take precedence. FLPMA, 43 U.S.C. § 1732 (a) Yet, despite this, BLM has issued a regulation that provides “[w]ild horses and burros shall be considered comparably with other resource values in the formulation of land use plans.” 43 C.F.R. §4700.0-6(b).”

    To me, this is really why the court case is important. It is difficult to separate out what is law and what is BLM regulation “interpreting” the law. It is just a murky swamp! A place to begin might be to make a list of all the things BLM MUST do, by law, before it can start one of their gathers, according to all the laws they have to deal with (like, I suppose, file an EIS). Also, are we looking at the situation under a microscope or through a telescope? Under a microscope the gentleman whose opinion has been quoted from IDA sounds correct – but viewed broadly through a telescope, if the end result is removing all the wild horses from their ranges permanently, does this comply with the law? In other words, what is the CUMULATIVE RESULT of what is being done by the BLM? – and does the CUMULATIVE RESULT comply with the law?? I do not know the answers to these questions, so I want the court to clarify! Their answers cannot be worse than what is already being done to the wild horses and burros!

    Here is another very serious problem to think about. I believe that the vast majority of our citizens know nothing about this whole issue. Everyone has tried so hard to give the matter a more widespread public airing, but the process is very slow. I finally have a letter to the “Voice of People” column in our “South Bend Tribune” accepted (but not yet published). Nothing has appeared in the news here at all. Another lady from Pennsylvania emailed and said nothing has appeared in her newspaper either. The worst report came today from my sister in Tucson – a friend, who has two horses, knew absolutely nothing about this issue until last week! She was appalled! I guess all we can do is keep writing letters to our newspapers and spreading the word however we can! I mention this because we are all so into the ins and outs of this whole topic, but the vast majority of our fellow citizens are yet to be educated! Oh, my!

    • Karen L. Says:

      Yes, Sandra! I think the HSUS could be instrumental in getting out the word by doing TV spots and/or billboards. People would care if only they knew!

  60. LOUIE COCROFT Says:

    ROXY–NOT SURE WHERE TO POIn Battle Over Public Lands, Ranchers Push Public Aside
    Search All NYTimes.com

    KETCHUM, Idaho— The high alpine country near the grave of Ernest Hemingway is some of the prettiest public land in America, with its flower meadows, wild horses and views of the tallest mountains in Idaho. Signs inform visitors that it is a land of “many uses,” overseen for the public by the Federal Bureau of Land Management.
    But Congress is now poised to grant ranchers virtual control over this and almost every other part of the 270 million acres of Federal land where grazing permits have already been issued. People who hunt, fish or hike say the concept of sharing the use of public lands is being shoved aside for a small special interest.
    In the heart of the Idaho mountains northeast of Sun Valley, for example, the computer billionaires William Hewlett and David Packard, two of the richest men in America, graze their cattle on nearly 100,000 acres of Federal land that adjoins their 15,000-acre private ranch.
    ST THIS–PLAYING BLOG TAG:

  61. LOUIE COCROFT Says:

    THAT DIDN’T POST QUITE RIGHT–NOT SURE WHY, BUT THE INFO IS THERE.

  62. sandra longley Says:

    Sandra M-you are so on target…I didn’t know this was was occurring until the GMA story aired and caught my attention..watched the video on line..I don’t watch much T.V. and apparently this story was on the back pages of local news..I think most people are consumed with economic and political news…stock market ect…which is why I think it is important to get this frount and center on the media…I have an i-google alert now for any story that comes up for “BLM roundup” so I can go and leave comments…Numbers of comments is how news organizations determine how important a story is to their viewers…whether it makes frount page and whether or not to do follow ups on the subject…so its very important-as many as possible log in with comments. This is a tuff time to make frount page news…there is alot of problems out there for people to be worried about…We REALLY need to focus on getting the children involved…children get their parents involved, children can spur community involvement, Children made the difference for mustang annies case…children wrote to the white house in thousands…we need that now….My thought is that people should send broken heart valentines to the white house..from individual herds, and courage, freedom, cloud ect, from all that died and will spend the rest of their lives in captivity, looking thru a fence, then make sure the AP news gets a copy of an article…with pictures…and plan valentine day protests with broken heart signs.

  63. sandra longley Says:

    Didn’t one of those foals being driven to calico die of a “broken” heart? was that courage? he could be our poster on valentines day.

  64. mustangdreams... Cat Kindsfather Says:

    http://www.thepetitionsite.com/petition/710080115
    Don’t forget to sign this one!!!

  65. Sandra Miller Says:

    I just read through everything on this blog again, to see what I could contribute. Here is something – about the origin of our beef. In 2008 (I think – time is running together these days) I worked on the Farm Bill, which is redone every five years. One thing that was inserted into that bill was food labeling as to country of origin of unprocessed products. This is particularly useful with products like meat and produce. Now, don’t be surprised if you find things otherwise at your local supermarket, because you know some laws only get observed if they are enforced, but the law makes it mandatory for country of origin to be on unprocessed food. Country of origin should be on the label on your meat. Here in South Bend I have found two countries mentioned on beef – USA and Canada. South America could be shipping into the southern part of our country – I don’t know. This is rather easy for the supermarket to comply with, because they have to type up labels for their meat in the first place, so they can just automatically add it – the place I find it lacking sometimes, is on raw produce (very important, because spinach, tomatoes, green onions, etc. have been implicated in many food born illnesses). We also get tomatoes from Canada! This is the area of the store where I have to “remind” the produce people to get their products labeled. Last year I found small crates of shipped in tomatoes, “grown in Mexico” stamped on the crates, but distributed by Canada. This is OK in one way, though – because this means the distributor must know where, down to the very field, these tomatoes were grown in Mexico, so the source of the contaminant can be examined (it is often polluted irrigation water). That is the reason for the labeling requirement – to be able to trace the product back to the site of growth and contamination. So, check your labels on the meat – it is current law that all unprocessed products be labeled as to their country of origin. If yours is not, “inquiring minds should want to know, ‘Why not?’ “

  66. Sandra Miller Says:

    Ray, you should report what you have seen at a ranch in your area which you believe has such destruction done to the land by the wild horses and burros to the proper authorities, which I believe is the BLM. All the horses that were rounded up at Calico, that would be the 1922 now in holding at Fallon, were fat and healthy. There are many pictures of them posted on the Cloud Foundation site. Generally speaking, the horses comprise a very small fraction of all the animals on our Public Lands. They are particularly dwarfed in numbers by cattle. We are all very interested in their welfare, and we would certainly welcome anyone to report a herd that appears to be starving to death to the BLM. You seem to have concrete information to share with the proper authorities. Please do that!

  67. mustangdreams... Cat Kindsfather Says:

    RAY

    WILD HORSES AND BURROS WERE GIVEN FEDERAL PROTECTION BY CONGRESS IN 1971. THIS ALONE IS REASON ENOUGH THAT THEY SHOULD GET IT!
    MAN DID NOT RIDE ON THE BACK OF PIGS, NOR DID ANTELOPE OR DEER PULL COVERED WAGONS TO CLAIM THE WEST! NOR DID A PIG OR ANY OTHER ANIMAL CARRY MAN INTO BATTLE OR TILL HIS SOIL. THE HORSE IS OUR MAJESTIC ICON OF AMERICAN HERITAGE!! THE HORSE HAS ALWAYS BEEN A FAITHFUL FRIEND, A COMPANION, AN ENJOYMENT AND HARD WORKER, OUR EARLY TRANSPORTATION, OUR JOY TO LAY EYES ON?

    ALONG THE PATH OF MANS SUCCESSES, THE BONES OF A HORSE ARE STREWN.

    LET US SHOW GREAT RESPECT, IN THE BIG PICTURE, TO THE ONES WHO BROUGHT US TO THIS PLACE IN OUR LIVES. THE HORSE OF COURSE!!

  68. sandra longley Says:

    Ray: put your big boy pants on and come on back, I have some questions to ask you…..

  69. mustangdreams... Cat Kindsfather Says:

    Sandra

    Go get him!

  70. mustangdreams... Cat Kindsfather Says:

    I love reading this brilliant thread of commenting. Its gotten heated and yet cool. Education is the best weapon! Great army of advocates here…..well armed!
    Applause!!!!

  71. sandra longley Says:

    Feb11, Pahrump Valley Times””The last time the U.S. Bureau of Land Management published a resource management plan for the Las Vegas District, which includes Pahrump, the U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania were bombed, President Clinton admitted an affair with Monica Lewinsky and the Unabomber pleaded guilty.

    The plan will be a long-term, road map for decisions by BLM, the largest landholder in the area with 3.1 million acres under management in the Las Vegas District which includes southern Nevada up to near Beatty.

    “BLM has to be in conformance with its land-use plan any time we make a decision,” Bob Ross, field manager of the BLM Las Vegas office, told about 20 people during a public hearing Monday night at the Bob Ruud Community Center.

    That includes decisions on granting rights-of-way permit for a pipeline or whether to issue resource recreation permits, he said. Any changes down the line require a plan amendment.

    “Rapid population change affects the BLM’s ability to protect the lands,” Ross said.

    Some areas not examined in the 1998 plan, like off-highway vehicle use, will be considered, including where people can and can’t drive, Ross said.

    But he said, “We don’t want to plan for things that already work well.”

    The rapid rise in renewable energy is another area to be considered, Ross said, including what are the most appropriate places to put these developments. Some of the renewable energy projects, which are planned in a checkerboard along Highway 95 through Amargosa Valley, are conflicting with routes used for off-road races, he said. (See related article on page A1.)

    Likewise, the BLM wants to determine the areas most suitable for recreation, Ross said.

    Communities like Amargosa Valley, which are in areas with a lot of BLM managed lands, have drawn up their own area plans for submission to the BLM, something Ross encourages.

    “We learn a lot about what local communities want in their own plan,” Ross said. “We are required to take into account the plan of local leaders.”

    Indian tribes, counties, other federal agencies and numerous interest groups and organizations are expected to be involved in the process. Darrell Lacy, Nye County director of the Nuclear Waste Repository Office, said the county will be drawing up recommendations for the plan.

    The plan will consider the areas identified for disposal by the BLM back in 1998 and whether to add any more land, Ross said. There can be an outright sale of land, or public entities could be granted a recreation and public purpose lease, he said.

    John Backer, from Sandy Valley, said he didn’t hear anything in Ross’ presentation about plans to sell more public land to private owners.

    “This is probably the best opportunity for anybody, if they know of lands they know are in public lands, to transfer them to private ownership,” Ross replied.

    While the BLM set up easels manned by various specialists prepared to answer questions, and a court reporter was available to take comments on the resource management plan for the record, some members of the public didn’t think the BLM listens to their concerns.

    Mike Zaman, a member of the Pahrump Valley Four-Wheelers, said, “They already closed a lot of the areas we like without asking. We believe you should leave the old roads that lead to mines and ghost towns. They nonchalantly stuck a sign in the ground that says ‘wilderness.'”

    Priscilla Lane asked Ross: “Why is it we’re having such a problem getting you to listen to us when you’re having a wild horse roundup?”

    Ross said the resource management plan will address appropriate management levels for wild horses and burros on public land.

    “We started out with 2 million horses across this state. We’re down to probably 25,000. You folks have had probably 33,000 in the federal pens for some time,” Lane said.

    Diane Davis, with the Dreamchaser Ranch, said she is visiting area schools, encouraging school children to send letters to the president opposing the horse roundups.

    “They want the horses protected. They want the roundups stopped,” Davis said. “They were absolutely appalled. We went to J.G. Johnson and told them what was happening to the horses.”

    Others were just interested in gathering information.

    John Davis wanted information on Last Chance Park. “I’d like them to assure me that park will be restricted to non-motorized vehicles,” he said.

    Bob Whimpey, the Nye County School District construction manager, was scouting out land in Amargosa Valley for the day when the district will want to build another Amargosa Valley school.

    Mineral management isn’t a big issue in the Las Vegas District, Ross said. But while the BLM will consider everything from solar power projects to wild burros, off-highway vehicle use could be one of the thornier issues to be decided in the resource management plan.

    “One of our thoughts is to change our designation. Off-highway vehicles will be limited to designated roads and trails,” Patrick Putnam, director of the BLM Pahrump field office said. “It gives us a little more management other than a free-for-all in the desert.”

    Ross said there are very long-range plans to move that office to Pahrump, he said.

    While there is a Feb. 28 deadline to submit comments for the scoping report, Ross said that’s for the convenience of the contractor drawing up the document.

    “We never turn down a good suggestion until the ink is dry and we sign that document,” Ross said.

    The comments will be included in a draft environmental impact statement, after which there will be another series of public meetings, he said.

    Comments for the resource management plan may be sent to: Las Vegas Field Office, Bureau of Land management, 4701 N. Torrey Pines Dr., Las Vegas, NV 89130, Attention: Carolyn Ronning, RMP project lead.

    They can be sent by e-mail to: SNDO_RMP_Revision@blm.gov.

  72. sandra longley Says:

    Note that the BLM is selling off public land to private interests..We have to stop this!

  73. mustangdreams... Cat Kindsfather Says:

    In reply to RAY, here is what it says @ Wikipedia…….

    Mustang (horse)
    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    This article is about the horse. For other uses, see Mustang (disambiguation).
    Mustang

    Free-roaming Mustangs
    Distinguishing features: Small, compact, good bone, very hardy
    Country of origin: North America
    A Mustang is a free-roaming feral horse of the North American west that first descended from horses brought to the Americas by the Spanish. Mustangs are often referred to as wild horses, but the more correct term is feral horses.
    In 1971, the United States Congress recognized Mustangs as “living symbols of the historic and pioneer spirit of the West, which continue to contribute to the diversity of life forms within the Nation and enrich the lives of the American people.” Today, Mustang herds vary in the degree to which they can be traced to original Iberian horses. Some contain a greater genetic mixture of ranch stock and more recent breed releases, while others are relatively unchanged from the original Iberian stock, most strongly represented in the most isolated populations.
    Today, the Mustang population is managed and protected by the Bureau of Land Management. Controversy surrounds the sharing of land and resources by the free ranging Mustangs with the livestock of the ranching industry, and also with the methods with which the federal government manages the wild population numbers.

    • Ray Says:

      And you point is?

    • Ray Says:

      and your point is….

      • Roxy Says:

        “and your point is…”

        Ray, sorry but I’m not involving myself with you any longer – you are the one that posted THIS very same Wikepedia link in your rebuttal to prove YOUR POINT. Prove what? I won’t respond, but perhaps others will still be interested.

        Just wander around this site Ray, listen to the radio spots, wathc the actual BLM Advisory Board meetings, go to the links, watch PBS, read the BLM site to compare – I devoured the BLM site, not just wild horses, the whole thing – guess what in the fire section BLM as introduced goats, GOATS, to eat the fire fuel – failed because unlike horses they truly are destructive. They tried it here in Arizona too – failed. Everything you need is right under your nose.

  74. Sandra Miller Says:

    Thank you, Cat, for taking the time to post the Wikipedia article. Notice this information from the article, “Today, Mustang herds vary in the degree to which they can be traced to original Iberian horses. Some contain a greater genetic mixture of ranch stock and more recent breed releases, while others are relatively unchanged from the original Iberian stock, most strongly represented in the most isolated populations.” Do you happen to remember the young horse photographed during the Pyor roundup who had the two zebra- like stripes in the area of his withers/back, Very interesting, I thought! Someone should find that photo and post it for the Doubting Thomas among us. I have recommended these books before, but it is worth repeating their titles. Read “”A Beautiful, Cruel Country” by Eva Antonia Wilbur-Cruce and its companion book, “Arizona’s Spanish Barbs, the Story of the Wilbur-Cruce Horses” by Silke Schneider. Eva (b. 1904) ran her father/ grandfather’s 1,641-acre Wilbur Ranch in southern Arizona until 1989, when she sold it to the Nature Conservancy. It is now part of the Buenos Aires National Wildlife Refuge. The more than 70 horses left on the ranch were isolated and and could trace their history back to Grandpa Wilbur’s purchase from Father Kino in the 1880’s. Grandpa Wilbur, a medical doctor, brought Morgans from East, to improve the stock, he thought, BUT THEY WERE UNABLE TO SURVIVE ON THE DESERT AND SOON DIED. The herd was authenticated by experts from Spanish horse registries and Dr. Phillip Sponenberg, DVM, Ph.D., Technical Coordinator for the American Livestock Breeds Conservancy since 1978, Spanish horse expert and enthusiast, and veterinary pathologist and geneticist at Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University in Blacksburg. According to Dr. Sponenberg, there are three main steps to find and secure pure strains of Spanish horses:

    1. Visual inspection, phenotype. Do they look like a Spanish horse?

    2. History. What is the horses’ history? Do they have a history of relative isolation? Is there an oral history where the horses came from?

    3. Blood typing. Does the blood typing show certain Spanish markers? Does it prove relative isolation of the herd? Does it show genetic diversity?

    Eva’s horses passed all tests and those of breeding quality were divided into small groups and went to breeders: one group to central Arizona; one to New Mexico; two to Oklahoma; and one to California.

    Dr. Sponenberg made this interesting observation: “The few outside horses that had been introduced (such as two tattooed racing Quarter Horses found at the round up, presumably victims of rustlers) had made no discernible genetic impact.”

    • sandra longley Says:

      The Kiger Mustang of the steens in oregon are a herd with those distinctive qualities, coloring and barring and have the tipped ears that would be indicative of the spanish barb-they don’t round that herd up very often, but breeders have aquired stallions and mares from there and are continuing to breed them true.

  75. mustangdreams... Cat Kindsfather Says:

    * Mustang (horse), a free-ranging feral horse breed (Equus ferus caballus)

    * Agree, we must stop selling our public lands. I read that 25 million acres of public lands have been either sold or taken from wild horses, land that was designated for them under the 1971 protections act. If I am off on this one, please comment and correct me.

    * As far as Nevada is concerned, there is plenty of land for wild horses as I see it. I can’t understand why BLM thinks they need to remove any horses at all from the Eagle HMA.

    * The photographs from Calico roundups at the capture pens, immediately following the stampede into the pens, the horses I saw looked fit, muscular, and extremely healthy! The starving on the range story does not fly. Get one horse in bad condition and they try to focus the video on just that one. From all the stills and videos I have seen in Calico roundup, I don’t think even 3 per cent was in poor condition, not until post roundups. In nature as well as in our own lives, there are both healthy and not so healthy beings. Wild ones are all about survival of the fittest.

    * I would rather see a WILD horse starve in the wild trying to live, than see one starved of his spirit and freedom in a BLM holding facility staring lifelessly into space, bedraggled and sleeping in their own scat and urine with no shelters or wind breaks.

    * If BLM is supposed to be protecting our wild horses, wouldn’t it be much more cost effective to dig remote wells and drop feed by air in winter? That seems like protection to me.

    *Removing our wild horses and allowing new grazing permits at the same sites is obviously serving special interests! When ranchers complain that horses are destroying the range forage, can we assume it is more likely cattle, as they outnumber horses at least 100 to 1 on public lands. Much of these lands were put in place for wild horses by Congress in 1971. So why are cattle herds grazing on these equine refuges?

    * Big corporations have hi-jacked our government. It’s time to get their hands out of Uncle Sam’s pockets! Stop serving special interests at the expense of tax payers who wish to see our wild herds wild and free where they should be living and protected as intended by Congress in 1971.

    * Whoever it was that mentioned the complications that could arise with The Ruby Pipeline in conjunction with seismic activity, excellent point! I am in Carson City and felt that one near Reno about a year and a half ago. I cannot recall the exact date, but its not hard to get that information. Anyway, it was centered near Reno, just West a bit. I was laying in bed and it jerked the bed very hard and I heard a huge crack! My friend in Reno called me immediately and was thrown off of his couch and was viably shaken emotionally and literally of course! There has been more activity and it should be a grave concern for investigation and possible cancellation of a gas pipeline! But hey, you know what, I find it hard to believe they would not know this. And so then I’m thinking, why would they even consider it? Obviously something is up!

    * Also, and back to horses directly. I understand that horses eat a particular weed in winter when other forage is thinned out. I am not sure of the name, but my mom called it fireweed. It can be an extreme fire hazard if present.
    Removing the mass of over 1,900 horses from Calico Complex, assures that there will be an eminent fire hazard in that area!

    * There is no reason to eat meat, especially if it means our wild horses have to be pushed off their rightful lands for cattle grazing. Did you know that the majority of colon cancer cases are found in heavy meat eaters? I weaned myself off of meat in the 70’s. No desire for it at all.

    * I will never support Hewlett-Packard due to the information received here about Idaho. Corporate America has quite a bit to do with this recession and state our country is in now! Taking our jobs over seas, Wall Street, etc, etc.
    Always about them and their bankroll at the expense of rain forests, animals, global ecology and the economy of the nation. Corporate greed has to end.

    Just a few things I had to get out. I am getting off of my soap box now. Thank you every one of you for educating me further in this thread of brilliant discussions.

    LOUIE, you are right, everyone has made great contributions here.
    Also Louie, I am sorry you are not online. I was hoping to get some communicating through emails, as sometimes it is better to have some private correspondence verses public commenting all the time. No sense in giving the opponent a heads up on certain issues. Regarding security and posting contact information, The “TRUTH RALLY” flyer has to have communication available for RSVP and questions. I can always mark undesirable email as “spam” and it will be filtered out of my inbox. I never put my phone number online anywhere. Even then, I don’t answer calls with no caller ID, and I have not posted my number anyway. Whether its here or any other site online, I am careful of what I do. Most of all I am not worried about it and know my limitations. Thank you for your concern.

  76. mustangdreams... Cat Kindsfather Says:

    Sandra Miller

    Thanks for the thank you and for all the great genetic information! I am going to copy and paste it to my archives file re: wild horses.
    I don’t remember the young horse from the Pryor Range with the zebra stripes. I am on flivkr.com photography website and have a photo posted of a zorse with the mom, a regular horse. I will copy and past the link here for you!
    I appreciate your input and book referrals. I will check those out, thanks! A man commented on one of my shots about an auction in Oregon. Many of his wild horse photos are amazing and beautiful horses! His comments were a bit snippy and not pro advocate really, but I do like his shots. He mentioned he was going to the auction and doing his part to help the situation. Maybe I will even copy and paste his comment. I am going now to get the link for the ZORSE!

  77. mustangdreams... Cat Kindsfather Says:

    Here is the link to the photo of the ZORSE!

    WHAT WAS THAT ???

  78. mustangdreams... Cat Kindsfather Says:

    Ray……My point is………

    Roxy addressed it concerning what you said and what Wikipedia actually says!
    You can’t just make it up as you go along. No where does it state that mustangs are an invasive species.

    I agree with Roxy you need to provide facts, links, photos, some proof to your claims.

    Thanks Roxy for your comments and points you addressed! Well done!
    Appreciate your time in it as well as your heart.

    • Ray Says:

      Cat, I said horses are an invasive specie, wiki did not that I am aware of.

      I will be out of town for a few days and will respond to Roxy when I return…thanks for listening.

    • sandra longley Says:

      Non-native species can become such a common part of an environment, culture, and even diet that little thought is given to their geographic origin. For example, soybeans, kiwi fruit, wheat and all livestock( except the llama and the turkey) are non-native species to North America. Collectively, non-native crops and livestock comprise 98% of US food.[12] These and other benefits from non-natives are so vast that, according to the Congressional Research Service, they probably exceed the costs.[
      Since it has already been proven that equs existed in north america prior to the ice age(proof being fossils)..technically they are classified as a reintroduced species.And lets not forget man is a feral and invasive species…..

  79. Sandra Miller Says:

    Cat, would you like to expand your audience a little more before you leave your soapbox? I would like to send your message on to those on my “friends and relatives” list, but I would not copy and paste without your permission. You have done such a great job of hitting all the high points of this debate! I like the fact that our arguments are all listed in one place! I think at this point we are all like the student who has over-studied for a final and is just bursting with much more information than the instructor ever thought about asking for on the exam! Thank you for the link for the zorse.

    Months ago, before I became aware (and then properly horrified) about what the DOI/BLM was doing to those wild horses and burros I thought were continuing to live in safety on our Public Lands, my sister in Tucson sent me Eva’s autobiography, “A Beautiful, Cruel Country’, and it ignited all my old passions for the wild horses and burros of the West. I also came to admire this unusual woman who took over the running of the family ranch in the 1930’s, a turbulent time in our history for everyone, including the wild horses and burros living on our western lands, as cattlemen attempted to exterminate every horse in sight, including those on SOMEONE ELSE’S property. Even if I didn’t love horses, I am a staunch property rights advocate thanks to a farmer grandfather who taught me VERY early that we do not go on other people’s property without permission. Being the owner of two water powered mills and therefore a sizable pond, he practiced what he preached – ask permission to fish and you can even borrow my boat – sneak in and you will be looking down the barrel of my rifle. The battle being waged now is important on many levels, and not just to the wild horses and burros – special interest groups who have always managed to bully and buy their wishes in the West will also receive a long overdue reminder! This is an excellent practical exercise in democratic government!

  80. mustangdreams... Cat Kindsfather Says:

    Sandra Miller

    Hi Sandra, its fine with me to share what I have said and thanks for the compliment also! I hope it will be a positive force, helpful to the cause.

    I want to get that book you speak of, “A Beautiful, Cruel Country. Sounds about right these days. I hate to feel ashamed of my country, and right now I am feeling very ashamed at what has been forced on our beautiful wild horses by the government that is supposed to be protecting them.

    The link I shared for the zorse goes to a persons photo stream on flickr..com. for viewing. Louie had trouble finding my photo stream there, so thats why I sent the link for this shot. All shots are copyrighted and licensed and should not be used without permissions. Viewing is fine.

    A big shout out to you and Roxy today! Everyone one of you is a golden heart and a beautiful voice for our precious wild ones that are so helpless in this.
    Blessings!

  81. mustangdreams... Cat Kindsfather Says:

    Oh and one more thing to ponder.

    “The Greatness of a Nation and its Moral Progression, can be judged by the way its Animals are Treated” quote by ……….GHANDI

    I love this one, and how true it is!

  82. mustangdreams... Cat Kindsfather Says:

    http://us.mc1121.mail.yahoo.com/mc/welcome?.gx=1&.tm=1266062534&.rand=c033t0agit8at#_pg=showMessage&fid=Inbox&mid=1_9752_AGEWw0MAADbxS3ZHSQYXynnbTC8&.rand=1211631220&.jsrand=9650432

    ACTION ALERT..for New Mexico bands..

  83. Sandra Miller Says:

    Thanks for the permission, Cat. Here is another matter we should all know about. This information was posted by Angela Valianos 2/11 under an old article, Protestors Cheer Stallion’s Escape – from the Westword” which I had contributed to and was still receiving messages from. I asked Angela to move her post here, but she has not done so and it may be she doesn’t know how? Anyway, I have copied and pasted it below, because it is important information:

    CROSS POST EVERYWHERE !!!! PLEASE HELP !!!

    815-260-1722 Angela Valianos Cell

    This is really bad. Illinios is reintroducing legislation to reopen Cavel.

    Rep. Sacia is introducing HB4812 to the House Ag committe to be able to reopen Cavel. They suspect they are bringing in some Rep from WY that fancies herself an expert on this issue.

    We need expert testimony for this meeting.

    The meeting is scheduled for 2/16

    This is where OUR WILD HORSES WILL BE GOING ! I have said this all along !

    PLEASE CROSS POST EVERYWHERE !!!!

    I googled Illinois HB4812 about Cavel Horse Slaughterhouse to find out what is going on. I read an article from “Examiner.com”, Indianapolis dated January 16, 2010. This is one of the three horse slaughterhouses the US Congress shut down a few years ago after a campaign sponsored by HSUS. It belongs to a Belgium company. It sounds like this company is continually pressuring the Illinois legislature to get permission to open again. This is something to watch, but I don’t think it is an imminent danger. The same congressman submits the same pro horse slaughter bill every year and the legislature just votes it down again. The article concluded with Einstein’s observation that doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result is the definition of insanity! No one seemed to think it would happen, but we should pay attention anyway, just in case.

  84. LOUIE COCROFT Says:

    IS THERE ANY SUCH THING AS PUTTING A LEGAL DOCUMENT IN READABLE LANGUAGE RATHER THAN LEGALESE? THEY SHOULD BE WRITTEN IN CLEAR, CONCISE, COMPREHENSIVE LANGUAGE. THE BILL OF RIGHTS IS PRETTY MUCH THAT AND IT HAS STOOD THE TEST OF TIME. WE HAVE BUT TO STAND FIRM ON IT.

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